Brexit

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

That's the one of the many problems with Brexit, one person's Brexit is not another's, and why the whole process is flawed. Its also why we need a confirmatory vote when we know exactly what the country is being signed up to (if MPs ever decide...).

A big if as she might have kicked the can down the road for 6 months but whether MP's can decide by then is another matter in itself as both main parties are permanently stuck in a perpetual ongoing civil war over Brexit.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Utter nonsense, but, whatever helps you sleep at night.

Many pro Brexit MP's voted against TM's deal because in their eyes it kept us at risk of being tied to the EU for an indefinite period of time.

I know they did. I did not say otherwise, did I? The Brexiteers who voted against did so to deliver on the referendum. It was the remainers voting against their parties' own mandates to deliver on Brexit in line with the referendum that ensured a lack of a majority in Parliament in betrayal of what the electorate actually wanted..

---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That makes no sense. You're saying it's alright for Leaver MPs to vote against Theresa May's deal but not Remainer MPs?

Yes, because the leavers who voted against May's deal voted for a no-deal Brexit, whereas the remainers voted against to stop Brexit.

---------- Post added at 13:55 ---------- Previous post was at 13:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Dave42

wrong again OB it the brexiteers that voted against Brexit we would have been out by now if they hadn't as said before gonna be a softer Brexit now or no Brexit at all would brexiteer mps that voted against Brexit want that instead of leaving

I am not wrong, you just didn't understand the point I was making. The Brexiteers voting against May's deal were not trying to stop Brexit. The remainers were, and if they hadn't done so, May's deal would have got through.

---------- Post added at 13:56 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

That's the one of the many problems with Brexit, one person's Brexit is not another's, and why the whole process is flawed. Its also why we need a confirmatory vote when we know exactly what the country is being signed up to (if MPs ever decide...).

No, we don't. The people who want another referendum want 'remain' to be an option, and there you have it. It is just a ruse to deny the electorate what they voted for.

[RichardCoulter]

I think that the forthcoming European Elections will be used as a de facto second referendum.

If leavers vote for Farage & UKIP in enough numbers and they become elected, that will really put the cat amongst the pigeons regarding our extension agreement to behave reasonably at EU meetings.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

I think that the forthcoming European Elections will be used as a de facto second referendum.

If leavers vote for Farage & UKIP in enough numbers and they become elected, that will really put the cat amongst the pigeons regarding our extension agreement to behave reasonably at EU meetings.

Highly unlikely l would say as one suspects there will be as usual a pretty poor voter turnout like there has been since 1979.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/european...on-turnout.htm

[Mr K]

It's the same people who don't vote in EU elections that complain about unelected Eurocrats, go figure

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

No, we don't. The people who want another referendum want 'remain' to be an option, and there you have it. It is just a ruse to deny the electorate what they voted for.

And we know why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote ....
The electorate are allowed to change their mind like they do at every GE. It'll be over 3 years since the vote come October, and folks are now very well informed. In the words of David Davis 'if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy...'
If they haven't, fair enough.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's the same people who don't vote in EU elections that complain about unelected Eurocrats, go figure

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------



And we know why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote ....
The electorate are allowed to change their mind like they do at every GE. It'll be over 3 years since the vote come October, and folks are now very well informed. In the words of David Davis 'if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy...'
If they haven't, fair enough.

Who in their right mind would take a single word David Davis says seriously, the man has proved himself a half witted charlatan repeatedly with his brexit proclamations, I'd rather not take lectures on democracy from him thanks very much

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's the same people who don't vote in EU elections that complain about unelected Eurocrats, go figure

---------- Post added at 15:00 ---------- Previous post was at 14:51 ----------

And we know why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote ....
The electorate are allowed to change their mind like they do at every GE. It'll be over 3 years since the vote come October, and folks are now very well informed. In the words of David Davis 'if a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy...'
If they haven't, fair enough.

The thing about supranational organisations like the EU, is that you CAN'T change your mind.


If in the 2016 referendum there had been a 3rd option of remaining in a Customs Union, which "side" would have chosen that in the greater numbers? Can be no doubt it would have been the Remain side. As such, a customs union is very much a Remain policy.

[jfman]

Even his employer doesn’t take anything Boris says seriously.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-boris-johnson

It also suggested that claims in Johnson’s column should not be taken seriously as the piece “was clearly comically polemical, and could not be reasonably read as a serious, empirical, in-depth analysis of hard factual matters”.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by denphone

Highly unlikely l would say as one suspects there will be as usual a pretty poor voter turnout like there has been since 1979.

http://www.ukpolitical.info/european...on-turnout.htm

It is usually a low turnout, but such is public feeling on both sides, I really do think that it will be a de facto rerun of the referendum and that turnout will be higher than usual.

Farage has launched his new party and I can see them (and to a lesser extent UKIP) picking up a lot of leave votes.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

It is usually a low turnout, but such is public feeling on both sides, I really do think that it will be a de facto rerun of the referendum and that turnout will be higher than usual.

Farage has launched his new party and I can see them (and to a lesser extent UKIP) picking up a lot of leave votes.

Sorry Richard the turnout will be near enough the same as usual l suspect.

Originally Posted by denphone

Sorry Richard the turnout will be near enough the same as usual l suspect.

It’s usually around 36% (+/- 2%), except in 1999, when it was 24%.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

It is usually a low turnout, but such is public feeling on both sides, I really do think that it will be a de facto rerun of the referendum and that turnout will be higher than usual.

Farage has launched his new party and I can see them (and to a lesser extent UKIP) picking up a lot of leave votes.

Now UKIP is associating itself with the ex-EDL founder Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, it runs the real risk of being labelled the "racists" party. In spite of this association, it will probably garner a not inconsiderable number of votes highlighting just how many people in this country are happy to be associated with racism and xenophobia.

The more fair minded will probably jump ship to the Brexit party where Mr Farage is fighting against the Elite with the help of Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister and sundry members of the proletariat ..

[jfman]

Originally Posted by denphone

Sorry Richard the turnout will be near enough the same as usual l suspect.

If people feel as strongly as it's suggested about Brexit, in favour of both sides, then I think it must have some consequence on the turnout for the EU elections. If the People's Vote campaign (aka the Liberal Democrats) try to push it as a 'vote for a second referendum' then it has to have some impact. If Farage is on the other side saying its the only way to save Brexit then the same is true in that case.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by jfman

If people feel as strongly as it's suggested about Brexit, in favour of both sides, then I think it must have some consequence on the turnout for the EU elections. If the People's Vote campaign (aka the Liberal Democrats) try to push it as a 'vote for a second referendum' then it has to have some impact. If Farage is on the other side saying its the only way to save Brexit then the same is true in that case.

What people feel and what people do are two different sides of a coin...

[007stuart]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Now UKIP is associating itself with the ex-EDL founder Stephen Yaxley-Lennon, it runs the real risk of being labelled the "racists" party. In spite of this association, it will probably garner a not inconsiderable number of votes highlighting just how many people in this country are happy to be associated with racism and xenophobia.

The more fair minded will probably jump ship to the Brexit party where Mr Farage is fighting against the Elite with the help of Jacob Rees-Mogg's sister and sundry members of the proletariat ..

Farage is a totally obnoxious individual who has done more damage to the UK with his self serving tirades against the EU than anyone else and still has the audacity to collect a salary from the EU.

His last attempt at garnishing support left him going home on a bus, which to my mind shows how little support his beliefs have and does not deserve the level of exposure he gets.