Brexit (Old)

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Carth

No not at all, stop picking holes where there are none. These zero hour contracts should be outlawed IMO

I love the way they say it suits most people on them, I bet most people don't know their on them and it doesn't suit anyone that does it as their main job

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

and the jobs the Brits don't want

A direct quote from your post, and when the above is allowed to fester in a society those who are doing the jobs that other nations don't want end up mistreated.

I have seen this first hand in multiple countries. Singapore, China and Australia to name three.

How would you propose that the UK ensures that this doesn't happen?

What are you on about? Yes, there are jobs that the Brits tend not to want to do, such as fruit picking. We must not create an immigration policy that does not take into account the need for employers to employ people from overseas where it is impossible to recruit people from within the UK. That stands to reason, doesn't it? All I am saying is that we don't want to let people in who are going to steal the jobs that our own people with the appropriate skills are willing and able to do - that simply drives down wages and creates unemployment.

I don't see that constituting mistreatment. There are separate laws to cover that, anyway.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

Could you give some examples of these "restrictive EU regulations", please, which business can be liberated from, and the perceived benefits to consumers?

The Acquired Rights Directive (the basis for our TUPE Regulations)
The Working Time Directive
The General Data Protection Regulations...

To name but three. All of these regulations take a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The basic principlefor each might have merit, but then they have so much bureaucracy and jargonistic language around them that the whole thing becomes a drag.

Most employers do not understand legislation from the EU and need an army of lawyers to interpret it. UK law can be an ass, but it was never like this.

---------- Post added at 07:27 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

You're on fire, Hugh! Yesterday you posted a question which the respondent could not answer and you've done the same today.

No, he's not, and I've just answered it. Sometimes it can be tiresome having to explain the obvious, that's all.

---------- Post added at 07:30 ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Carth

and the jobs the Brits don't want

Well if I was unemployed I can tell you a job I wouldn't want, and that's one of those 16 hours a week 'agency' type jobs

Well, given that we have close to full employment in this country and only a small proportion of them are zero hours contracts, you wouldn't have to accept such employment.

---------- Post added at 07:33 ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

But it's OK for a migrant to do it? and whilst they are doing that you would be doing what? waiting ever hopefully?

Yes it is, and they want to do it what's more. What's your solution? Who do you think should be doing these jobs?

If you are going to keep criticising like this, you need to come up with alternative solutions. But you don't...

---------- Post added at 07:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Carth

No not at all, stop picking holes where there are none. These zero hour contracts should be outlawed IMO

I disagree with you there. However, some employers have been abusing this, which is why we need to ensure that unfair practices are outlawed.

Zero hours contracts (which we used to call 'casual employment) can be useful to both employer and employee as they provide flexibility. However, they are not suitable for those who want stable hours and a stable income.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Carth

and the jobs the Brits don't want

Well if I was unemployed I can tell you a job I wouldn't want, and that's one of those 16 hours a week 'agency' type jobs

It's time to retell a story here. One of the managers in the company I work in is Hungarian and her younger 18 year old brother came over to stay. He wanted to come to the UK mainly to improve his English and see a bit of the world.

While he was here, he worked in various minimum wage jobs - barman, labourer in a building site, washing up in a restaurant kitchen etc. Lots of casual work basically. A couple of times, he went 'sod this' to a job and left and got another job within a couple of days. His opinion of young brits being unemployed wasn't high! He couldn't understand how you could be out of work when there are so many jobs out there.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

It's time to retell a story here. One of the managers in the company I work in is Hungarian and her younger 18 year old brother came over to stay. He wanted to come to the UK mainly to improve his English and see a bit of the world.

While he was here, he worked in various minimum wage jobs - barman, labourer in a building site, washing up in a restaurant kitchen etc. Lots of casual work basically. A couple of times, he went 'sod this' to a job and left and got another job within a couple of days. His opinion of young brits being unemployed wasn't high! He couldn't understand how you could be out of work when there are so many jobs out there.

Got any similar stories about middle aged married men with families and a mortgage?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

<SNIP>

Zero hours contracts (which we used to call 'casual employment) can be useful to both employer and employee as they provide flexibility. However, they are not suitable for those who want stable hours and a stable income.

Bingo. If the term "zero hours contract" would always be substituted with the term "causal labour contracts" there would be little furore.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Carth

Got any similar stories about middle aged married men with families and a mortgage?

Nope, that's why I stated young unemployment which has a rate of around 24% for age 16-17 and 10% for 18-24. Middle age men (35-49) is down at 2.4%. No mention of families and mortgages in the data I looked at I am afraid

Source - https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...da05sa/current

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What are you on about? Yes, there are jobs that the Brits tend not to want to do, such as fruit picking. We must not create an immigration policy that does not take into account the need for employers to employ people from overseas where it is impossible to recruit people from within the UK. That stands to reason, doesn't it? All I am saying is that we don't want to let people in who are going to steal the jobs that our own people with the appropriate skills are willing and able to do - that simply drives down wages and creates unemployment.

I don't see that constituting mistreatment. There are separate laws to cover that, anyway.

---------- Post added at 07:25 ---------- Previous post was at 07:18 ----------



The Acquired Rights Directive (the basis for our TUPE Regulations)
The Working Time Directive
The General Data Protection Regulations...

To name but three. All of these regulations take a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The basic principlefor each might have merit, but then they have so much bureaucracy and jargonistic language around them that the whole thing becomes a drag.

Most employers do not understand legislation from the EU and need an army of lawyers to interpret it. UK law can be an ass, but it was never like this.

---------- Post added at 07:27 ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 ----------



No, he's not, and I've just answered it. Sometimes it can be tiresome having to explain the obvious, that's all.

---------- Post added at 07:30 ---------- Previous post was at 07:27 ----------



Well, given that we have close to full employment in this country and only a small proportion of them are zero hours contracts, you wouldn't have to accept such employment.

---------- Post added at 07:33 ---------- Previous post was at 07:30 ----------



Yes it is, and they want to do it what's more. What's your solution? Who do you think should be doing these jobs?

If you are going to keep criticising like this, you need to come up with alternative solutions. But you don't...

---------- Post added at 07:36 ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 ----------

[/B]

I disagree with you there. However, some employers have been abusing this, which is why we need to ensure that unfair practices are outlawed.

Zero hours contracts (which we used to call 'casual employment) can be useful to both employer and employee as they provide flexibility. However, they are not suitable for those who want stable hours and a stable income.

If you're unemployed, and there's a role such as picking fruit. then unless there's a medical or other valid reason for not taking the position then you should take and do the the job. That is simple.

There are some genuine reasons for people who can't do roles such as fruit or vegetable picking, yhere are also some people with no work ethic or aptitude for hard work. These people should not get to decide what type of job they want.


By saying that unemployed British people can reject a job because they don't want it but saying it's acceptable for a migrant to do it. you are creating a two tier system. People will be treat differently because of this. I have seen it many times before.

Regarding your comment on there are suitable laws to cover mistreatment, they also have them in Singapore, China & Australia but that doesn't stop the inherent racism towards migrant workers



From the Belfast Telegraph;

February 9 2018

Britain’s horticulture farms suffered a 12.5% shortfall in seasonal workers in 2017 as numbers coming from continental Europe fell, it has been revealed.

The first full year following the Brexit referendum was the first time since the National Farmers Union began compiling figures in 2014 that growers were unable to recruit sufficient workers.

Opponents of Brexit said the figures proved that the Government’s position on EU withdrawal had resulted in fruit and vegetables being left to rot for lack of workers to pick them.

The NFU’s labour survey for December 2017 showed a shortfall of 15.6% in the number of seasonal workers in the horticultural sector that month, bringing the average over the course of the year to 12.5%.

The worst month was September, when growers reported a 29.3% shortage at a time when many crops are being harvested.

Over the course of the year, some 30,585 out of 34,962 seasonal vacancies were filled.
bpanews_74641ecf-aa87-4bea-942c-f669c75d0bc5_embedded297543
Recruitment of seasonal workers in UK horticulture farms. (National Farmers Union labour survey, December 2017)

Almost 67% of seasonal workers were from Romania and Bulgaria, with 32% from eight other EU countries in eastern and central Europe.

Fewer than 1% of the seasonal workers carrying out jobs such as fruit-picking were UK nationals – 169 individuals in the survey.

NFU deputy president Minette Batters said: “It is clear that solutions are still needed to ensure that farmers and growers have access to sufficient numbers of workers for both forthcoming seasons and post-Brexit.

“Access to both seasonal and permanent workers is crucial across all farming sectors and they are incredibly important to ensuring farmers can continue producing food to feed the nation.

“The NFU’s survey of labour providers shows that the availability of workers continues to tighten and I would urge Government to find a solution for the whole industry that ensures it has access to the people it needs.”

Green MP Caroline Lucas, a leading supporter of the Open Britain campaign for close ties with the EU, said: “The Government’s zealotry on Brexit and immigration is leading to a crisis in the British fruit industry.

“Fruit and veg is literally being left to rot in the fields because workers from the EU are increasingly unwilling to work here thanks to Brexit.”

The “minuscule” proportion of seasonal farm workers being recruited in the UK showed that it was “wishful thinking” to believe that local employees could fill the gap left by absent EU nationals, she said.

But according to you were in a position for British people for somehow to be above the role of fruit and veg picking?

I'm quite looking forward to watching people who have no work ethic crying after being in a field picking carrots for one hour....

Finally, exactly what jobs are migrant workers taking from the British?

'Sorry Dave with your GCSEs the reason you can't be a hospital porter isn't because you can't be bothered to get up on time or attend work trials, or even answer the phone to the DWP is because some migrant came over here and dared to work hard, showed willing and aptitude'

[Carth]

lots of 'summer' type jobs used to be done by students . . where are they now?

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Or you could just ditch the pursuit of facts and cling to the narrative that the stupid Tories wanted to give money to people who couldn’t do the job they needed done in an emergency.

Still clinging to this narrative

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ase-eurotunnel

The government has settled a high court case over the Brexit ferry fiasco after reaching an agreement worth up to £33m with Eurotunnel, which was suing it after the award of a contract to a company with no ships.

Eurotunnel argued that the government had breached public procurement rules by not putting any of the contracts out to tender.

It is believed that one of the factors leading to the settlement was the prospect of the background to the contract becoming public.

On Monday, Grayling was accused of trying to conduct large parts of the trial in private, against the principle of open justice, the high court heard.

The judge ordered Grayling to return to court by close of business Thursday with justification for keeping up to 10,000 documents relating to the contracts private.

It is believed the contract was settled out of court yesterday afternoon and all files now remain sealed and unavailable for press or public scrutiny.

Last month, the Department for Transport’s permanent secretary was forced to admit it had verbal assurances rather than a written guarantee of secure financial backing before handing a £13.8m contract to a ferry company with no ships.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Bingo. If the term "zero hours contract" would always be substituted with the term "causal labour contracts" there would be little furore.

But the challenge with some zero hour contracts is that you have to be available at very short notice, and get binned if you're not (especially in bar and restaurants).

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The Acquired Rights Directive (the basis for our TUPE Regulations)
The Working Time Directive
The General Data Protection Regulations...

To name but three. All of these regulations take a sledgehammer to crack a nut. The basic principlefor each might have merit, but then they have so much bureaucracy and jargonistic language around them that the whole thing becomes a drag.

No, he's not, and I've just answered it. Sometimes it can be tiresome having to explain the obvious, that's all.[
, and they want to do it what's more. What's your solution? Who do you think should be doing these jobs?

I'm pretty sure I've opted out of the working time directive and signed paperwork to confirm it, I realise it's tiresome but are you certain you're right about the other two?

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Bingo. If the term "zero hours contract" would always be substituted with the term "causal labour contracts" there would be little furore.

I'm on a zero hours contract, have been with the same employer 11 years, do 63 hours a week and work to a Rota,.the contract won't stand up in court or tribunal should it ever come to that and there are plenty more like me in the same company on the same but we're all on them never the less

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

If you're unemployed, and there's a role such as picking fruit. then unless there's a medical or other valid reason for not taking the position then you should take and do the the job. That is simple.

There are some genuine reasons for people who can't do roles such as fruit or vegetable picking, yhere are also some people with no work ethic or aptitude for hard work. These people should not get to decide what type of job they want. '

Or perhaps they don't live I the country, I'd suggest that's s reason not to take a temporary job rather than a lack of aptitude or work ethic, it's to simplistic to blame lazy young people and rhetoric I'm not keen on at all

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

But the challenge with some zero hour contracts is that you have to be available at very short notice, and get binned if you're not (especially in bar and restaurants).

And the real challenge is when you shouldn't be on them at all

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Carth

lots of 'summer' type jobs used to be done by students . . where are they now?

On drugs, presumably. Do you have a better explanation?

Sadly, but true.

---------- Post added at 22:28 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

But the challenge with some zero hour contracts is that you have to be available at very short notice, and get binned if you're not (especially in bar and restaurants).

No. That is an example of where it is not working properly. The whole idea of casual contracts is that they are flexible, both from tne perspective of employer and employee.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I'm on a zero hours contract, have been with the same employer 11 years, do 63 hours a week and work to a Rota,.the contract won't stand up in court or tribunal should it ever come to that and there are plenty more like me in the same company on the same but we're all on them never the less

You have no rights at all, but if you are happy what the hell.

---------- Post added at 22:45 ---------- Previous post was at 22:42 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

No. That is an example of where it is not working properly. The whole idea of casual contracts is that they are flexible, both from tne perspective of employer and employee.

That may be the case but it happens. It is not a casual contract and should not be referred to as such.

Historically casual workers never had contracts.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by pip08456

You have no rights at all, but if you are happy what the hell.

Really, acas and unite are wrong then I'll let them know they've advised me incorrectly as they seem to think, wrongly as it turns out, if I was working to the same Rota week in week out I wasn't on a zero hour contract despite the title given to it, you know in much the same way as if I never signed it but adhered to the terms of it would mean I accepted it.

---------- Post added at 22:55 ---------- Previous post was at 22:54 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Still clinging to this narrative

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ase-eurotunnel

Wasn't that clown on the news the other day saying not one penny would be paid out

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Really, acas and unite are wrong then I'll let them know they've advised me incorrectly as they seem to think, wrongly as it turns out, if I was working to the same Rota week in week out I wasn't on a zero hour contract despite the title given to it, you know in much the same way as if I never signed it but adhered to the terms of it would mean I accepted it.:

Then by default you are not on a zero hour contract but may have started on one. Check with you HR Dept.

You are the one who is saying you are on one not me.

Make up your mind, find out and post back if you want.