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Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments
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Old 30-11-2019, 16:22   #16
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
How does the above sit with the reserves that Councils hold?

https://www.localgov.co.uk/Council-r...ast-year/48029

I suspect that the guvmin's squeeze will last until councils have committed reserves to what they claim they are starved of.


If you read the quote in the article it sums it up well.

'These figures show that councils are topping up their reserves where they can, reflecting the absence of a long-term funding settlement for the sector, continued uncertainty around the spending review and Fair Funding Review and an expectation that the long hard winter of austerity is set to continue,í

In other words - councils need to keep money aside because of the uncertainty of how much they will be given in future years.

The amount set aside would barely cover local government spending for three months. As the article also states - some of it is ring fenced so local authorities couldn't even spend it if they wanted to.
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Old 30-11-2019, 16:44   #17
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Itís everything to do with tax cuts. The decisions of what we do (and donít) fund are a direct result of tax revenues.

You appear to be clouding the matter by bringing in a separate matter on a point people would universally agree: thereís no point funding treatment doesnít work. Thatís of course different from the wider issue.

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------



ďItís not what people wantĒ is a curious interpretation. Youíre assuming people are well informed, and that politicians strive to inform them appropriately.

As Iíve pointed out before - after 40 years of the neo-liberal consensus we are £2 trillion in debt. Politicians were happy to peddle the low tax myth without spelling out to people that it wasnít sustainable. People were happy to vote for it. Future generations will foot the bill.
If it was all about tax cuts and revenues, how come it was going on under Labour when they very good revenues and were borrowing massively on top of that?


The example I gave was simply one that I knew of from years back, The others may also have similar studies backing up these decisions.


The problem wasn't tax revenues, it was the various spending splurges, eg tax credit system. Local Housing Allowance(housing benefit).
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Old 30-11-2019, 16:53   #18
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
If it was all about tax cuts and revenues, how come it was going on under Labour when they very good revenues and were borrowing massively on top of that?

The example I gave was simply one that I knew of from years back, The others may also have similar studies backing up these decisions.

The problem wasn't tax revenues, it was the various spending splurges, eg tax credit system. Local Housing Allowance(housing benefit).
And equally they may not. I’d prefer to hear from medical professionals and not armchair Conservatives.

Various spending not supported by tax revenue is exactly what I’m describing. The decision of what to, or not to, fund. Tax credits to support employers paying low wages and housing benefit to support the rental housing market are equally things I disagree with and part of the deception by politicians for 40 years that have left us £2 trillion in debt despite the windfalls of privatisation. New Labour are just as complicit as the Conservatives in this sleight of hand.

A fair living wage and building council houses is a much better approach.

Last edited by jfman; 30-11-2019 at 17:25.
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Old 30-11-2019, 17:14   #19
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
How does the above sit with the reserves that Councils hold?

https://www.localgov.co.uk/Council-r...ast-year/48029

I suspect that the guvmin's squeeze will last until councils have committed reserves to what they claim they are starved of.


343 councils in the UK, and if you take out the GLA, their reserves are £1.1 billion, which works out (on average) as £3.2 million per council - not such a huge reserve (which they use to pay for stuff whilst waiting for Central Government money to arrive).

For instance, my local councile (Leeds, population of around 750k)

Quote:
Overall the council’s usable reserves have risen from £280m in 2017/18 to £312m in 2018/19, an increase of £32m. The majority of these £312m of useable reserves are ring
fenced (£252m) and are not available to support general expenditure. The main ring fenced reserves as at 31st March 2019 are:

o School based reserves £22m;
o Revenue and capital grants received in advance of planned expenditure £142m;
o Housing Revenue Account reserves £22m, statutorily ring fenced to the provision
of local authority housing;
o Major repairs reserve £24m, ring fenced to major repairs to council houses;
o Useable Capital Receipts reserve £42m, to finance capital expenditure, partly ring
fenced to council houses.

The remaining £59m of reserves is made up of the £28m General Fund reserve and
£31m of earmarked reserves.
They have to have some reserves, because, as we have found recently with floods, etc., "stuff happens"...
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Old 30-11-2019, 18:21   #20
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...CMP=GTUK_email





Rationed NHS? Not what was envisioned by the originators of the NHS.
And this is on top of the recent cutbacks of medication available on prescription. I now have to buy two of my medications myself.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taf View Post
I have never been called for my 5 yearly Health MOT by our GP. This should include a PSA test for prostate cancer. He thinks it is "unnecessary" despite him being paid to provide the service.

Over the years GPs here have also withdrawn minor surgeries (splinter extraction, cysts drainage, etc.), wart and verruca treatments, lice and headlice treatments, ingrowing toenail treatment, podiatry for the disabled, old or infirm, etc. etc. And now there are no walk-in consultations, just an appointment system with no evening or weekend cover, and neither for 2 afternoons per week.

And now they want to opt-out of out-of-hours cover and most home visits, demanding "another body" be set up to do it all instead.

And yet I suspect their pay will not drop a penny...
Isn't the NHS now primarily run by GP's? The same GP's who I am led to believe start on £1,000 a week, rising to at least £2,000 a week with many earning much more.

Yes, they do an essential job and have studied/worked hard to get where they are, but it sticks in my throat a bit to have these people on this sort of money telling me (and those much less able to afford it) that due to austerity they now have to purchase some of their own medicine.

I suspect them taking a 1% pay cut (small change to them after paying less tax/NI) would negate the need for these further cuts, but that's not going to happen is it.
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Old 30-11-2019, 18:33   #21
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
And this is on top of the recent cutbacks of medication available on prescription. I now have to buy two of my medications myself.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------



Isn't the NHS now primarily run by GP's? The same GP's who I am led to believe start on £1,000 a week, rising to at least £2,000 a week with many earning much more.

Yes, they do an essential job and have studied/worked hard to get where they are, but it sticks in my throat a bit to have these people on this sort of money telling me (and those much less able to afford it) that due to austerity they now have to purchase some of their own medicine.

I suspect them taking a 1% pay cut (small change to them after paying less tax/NI) would negate the need for these further cuts, but that's not going to happen is it.
Dcotors work very hard Richard and most have huge workloads as don't think its a bed of roses being a GP as it is far from that.

On the possible plans to ration services these are made by quite a few NHS bodies.

Quote:
The 50-page document is the result of months of detailed and until now secret discussions between four key medical and NHS bodies involved in the NHSís evidence-based interventions programme, which aims to identify procedures that do not work.

Quote:
They are NHS England; the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges (AOMRC), which represents the UKís 220,000 doctors professionally; NHS Clinical Commissioners, which speaks for GP-led clinical commissioning groups; and the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (Nice), which advises the government and NHS which treatments are effective and represent value for money.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...and-treatments
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Old 30-11-2019, 18:34   #22
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

You heard it here first:

GPs to blame for austerity and if only they took a 1% pay cut we could solve it all.

There are around 33,000 GPs in England. A 1% pay cut would be less than £33,000,000. As you rightly point out, we claw back much of that in tax anyway.
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Old 30-11-2019, 19:16   #23
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Itís everything to do with tax cuts. The decisions of what we do (and donít) fund are a direct result of tax revenues.

You appear to be clouding the matter by bringing in a separate matter on a point people would universally agree: thereís no point funding treatment doesnít work. Thatís of course different from the wider issue.

---------- Post added at 14:15 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------



ďItís not what people wantĒ is a curious interpretation. Youíre assuming people are well informed, and that politicians strive to inform them appropriately.

As Iíve pointed out before - after 40 years of the neo-liberal consensus we are £2 trillion in debt. Politicians were happy to peddle the low tax myth without spelling out to people that it wasnít sustainable. People were happy to vote for it. Future generations will foot the bill.
It's pretty arrogant of you to suggest that people don't understand the issues. You are assuming that most of the electorate are a bunch of retards who can't make sensible decisions on what they want.

What is very clear is that most people do want tax cuts. They also want good quality services, and they expect the government to provide these efficiently. It is the latter that is causing the problems - too much bureaucracy and outdated, inefficient systems.

The fact that this seems to come as a surprise to you is telling.

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
The electorate want the benefits without the cost, which is not possible in the real world.

They need to be educated in TANSTAAFL*

There Ainít No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
I think it is perfectly reasonable for our electorate to demand efficiency before pushing ever increased shedloads of money into an expanding black hole.

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua View Post
Council cuts are down to central government reducing how much they give councils. So they cut repairs to roads, library funding schools & support services, as they are stuck with looking after children in care and the elderly, because they have also been prevented from raising council tax. So people are spending more on car repairs needed due to poor roads, ends up being a false economy. The same applies to NHS funding, if people do not get the treatment they need in a timely manner, they lose their jobs through being unable to work, so more tax income is lost, whilst benefits go up.

People have been sold getting something for nothing. It cannot be sustained.
We are paying an absolute fortune into the NHS but service levels keep going down. Strange, that.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
If you read the quote in the article it sums it up well.

'These figures show that councils are topping up their reserves where they can, reflecting the absence of a long-term funding settlement for the sector, continued uncertainty around the spending review and Fair Funding Review and an expectation that the long hard winter of austerity is set to continue,í

In other words - councils need to keep money aside because of the uncertainty of how much they will be given in future years.

The amount set aside would barely cover local government spending for three months. As the article also states - some of it is ring fenced so local authorities couldn't even spend it if they wanted to.
Pity the last Labour government didn't note that, jfman.
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Old 30-11-2019, 19:31   #24
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
It's pretty arrogant of you to suggest that people don't understand the issues. You are assuming that most of the electorate are a bunch of retards who can't make sensible decisions on what they want.
I didn’t call anyone retards so there’s no need for such emotive terminology to be deployed.

I think it’s rather arrogant of anyone to claim they do understand all of the various issues in an election and I find it inherently improbable that the vast majority of people look beyond 2 or 3 issues. These could be local issues, constitutional issues, social issues.

Quote:
What is very clear is that most people do want tax cuts. They also want good quality services, and they expect the government to provide these efficiently. It is the latter that is causing the problems - too much bureaucracy and outdated, inefficient systems.
People do indeed want tax cuts. People do indeed want public services. Nobody has been honest for the last 40 years that you can’t have both.

Bureaucracy, outdated inefficient systems, is straightforward terminology deployed by those who want to privatise everything in the absence of any evidence that such inefficiency exists. If you compare, for example, administrative costs in the NHS as a proportion of all costs to the privatised US healthcare sector you will find the NHS spends a far lower proportion on administration.

The NHS can also use it’s purchasing power to drive down the price of drugs in a manner that smaller private companies cannot. As can be seen from the “concerns” the USA plan on bringing to the table in any future trade discussions.

Quote:
The fact that this seems to come as a surprise to you is telling.
Telling of what exactly?

Quote:
I think it is perfectly reasonable for our electorate to demand efficiency before pushing ever increased shedloads of money into an expanding black hole.
A statement in the absence of any evidence at all.

Quote:
We are paying an absolute fortune into the NHS but service levels keep going down. Strange, that.
Probably the profits being creamed out of it from PFI initiatives, etc. People living longer. There’s no magic wand to that.

Quote:
Pity the last Labour government didn't note that, jfman.
Neither did their predecessors. 40 years of failure has led to £2 trillion of debt. Every year we have to shell out £40bn a year in interest payments on this debt. That strikes me as a fairly inefficient use of funds for the fifth richest country in the world.

£40bn of course that could go into the NHS, for example.

Last edited by jfman; 30-11-2019 at 19:35.
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Old 30-11-2019, 20:00   #25
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by RichardCoulter View Post
And this is on top of the recent cutbacks of medication available on prescription. I now have to buy two of my medications myself.

---------- Post added at 17:21 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------



Isn't the NHS now primarily run by GP's? The same GP's who I am led to believe start on £1,000 a week, rising to at least £2,000 a week with many earning much more.

Yes, they do an essential job and have studied/worked hard to get where they are, but it sticks in my throat a bit to have these people on this sort of money telling me (and those much less able to afford it) that due to austerity they now have to purchase some of their own medicine.

I suspect them taking a 1% pay cut (small change to them after paying less tax/NI) would negate the need for these further cuts, but that's not going to happen is it.
To have that sort of income, they must have an overload of patients on their books per GP, which also means longer hours to get through the workload. GP income covers all the outgoings of a practice as well.

Only 10% of the population of England actually have to pay for prescriptions, maybe this needs looking at, particularly where cheap OTC medicines are concerned.
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Old 30-11-2019, 20:11   #26
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
And equally they may not. Iíd prefer to hear from medical professionals and not armchair Conservatives.

Various spending not supported by tax revenue is exactly what Iím describing. The decision of what to, or not to, fund. Tax credits to support employers paying low wages and housing benefit to support the rental housing market are equally things I disagree with and part of the deception by politicians for 40 years that have left us £2 trillion in debt despite the windfalls of privatisation. New Labour are just as complicit as the Conservatives in this sleight of hand.

A fair living wage and building council houses is a much better approach.
If that is an excuse you have made up to excuse Labour for its gross overspending and failure to establish safe reserves of money or gold which led us into a situation where the UK had no money to offset the ravages of the global financial crisis, you are fooling no-one.
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Old 30-11-2019, 20:24   #27
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by OLD BOY View Post
If that is an excuse you have made up to excuse Labour for its gross overspending and failure to establish safe reserves of money or gold which led us into a situation where the UK had no money to offset the ravages of the global financial crisis, you are fooling no-one.
You can count on one hand the number of times any Government has ran a budget surplus since 1979, and as a result the total debt has largely risen year on year in that time, outstripping inflation over that time.

It’s an outright, albeit convenient for you, lie to claim that this countries problems started with the 2008 financial crisis. The gold reserves, or lack of, are a complete red herring - the country was already heavily in debt and running a deficit. As it has been since 1979.

I note you didn’t address any of the other points I made in my fairly lengthy post instead focusing on a single sentence for a sound bite.

A poor response even by your own standards, Old Boy.

For information: the gold Brown sold was for $3.5bn, in 2007 it’d have been worth double. An absolute drop in the ocean compared to the £500bn rescue package the banks got for their failed ventures in capitalism.

Last edited by jfman; 30-11-2019 at 20:35.
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Old 02-12-2019, 20:34   #28
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

Just heard today on Radio Kent that the Medway area has the highest patient to Doctor ratio in the country (2900) to my Northern, Welsh, Scottish and N. Ireland friends this is supposed to be the affluent South that I come and live in....
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Old 02-12-2019, 20:44   #29
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Just heard today on Radio Kent that the Medway area has the highest patient to Doctor ratio in the country (2900) to my Northern, Welsh, Scottish and N. Ireland friends this is supposed to be the affluent South that I come and live in....
So affluent even a Doctor can't afford to live there, and they're loaded!
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Old 02-12-2019, 20:45   #30
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Re: Millions to be affected by NHS plan to ration 34 everyday tests and treatments

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Originally Posted by richard s View Post
Just heard today on Radio Kent that the Medway area has the highest patient to Doctor ratio in the country (2900) to my Northern, Welsh, Scottish and N. Ireland friends this is supposed to be the affluent South that I come and live in....
Thing is, BoJo and millionaire inherited wealth chums can just buy their healthcare. The NHS is for the plebs as far as they are concerned. As Dominic Cummings admitted Tory MPs don't give a toss for the NHS or the poor.
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