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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 19-03-2008, 20:40   #1471
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Hey maybe Phorm should take a leaf out of Comcast's book, clearly they have worked much harder on accessing profiling data judging by this:

http://gizmodo.com/369379/comcast-wa...your-cable-box

Lets see how long before VM decide to try this as well.

Alexander Hanff
thats even more scary than phorms invasion of privacy.

Maybe phorm will put script code to access everybody who has webcams and do the same. shut your mouth mertle dont give phorm idiots ideas

Where is this all going to end spy cameras in every room in, your cars.

using the cttv cameras to watch where you go and profiling your movements and habits.

Within a year they would know what your thinking before you do it.
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:10   #1472
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris U View Post
I'd be interested to see that small print, do you have a link ??
Chris - It's mentioned on page 2 of the E&Y Privacy Report, in Section II of the Management's Control Description, which can be found at http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/EY_Phorm_Exam.pdf

(I tried to copy the relevant section into this post, but it seem that either Phorm or E&Y is not keen on people being able to quote that report - it's a protected pdf that defies cut and paste!)
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:15   #1473
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
Chris - It's mentioned on page 2 of the E&Y Privacy Report, in Section II of the Management's Control Description, which can be found at http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/EY_Phorm_Exam.pdf

(I tried to copy the relevant section into this post, but it seem that either Phorm or E&Y is not keen on people being able to quote that report - it's a protected pdf that defies cut and paste!)
The pdf from The Guardian blog isn't protected:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...20final%20.pdf
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:18   #1474
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
Chris - It's mentioned on page 2 of the E&Y Privacy Report, in Section II of the Management's Control Description, which can be found at http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/EY_Phorm_Exam.pdf

(I tried to copy the relevant section into this post, but it seem that either Phorm or E&Y is not keen on people being able to quote that report - it's a protected pdf that defies cut and paste!)
Protected my ass Just don't use an Adobe PDF viewer (the default PDF document viewer in Ubuntu works fine):

"II. Phorm has established industry-leading standards regarding storage, retention and deletion of data.
Storage, retention and use of consumer data are currently key concerns in the online advertising industry. Phorm’s
systems collect browsing information such as URLs visited, search terms entered, OS version, relevant keywords of a
particular page and randomly-generated unique IDs. Importantly, however:
§ This specific data cannot be accessed by our ISP partners.
§ Even this non-personally-identifiable information is automatically purged from the production system immediately.
(Research and debug logs may be kept on a separate system for a maximum of 14 days).
§ Once the system purges this data, it is not possible for us to release it, either accidentally or deliberately."

Alexander Hanff
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:25   #1475
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
....." § Once the system purges this data, it is not possible for us to release it, either accidentally or deliberately."

Alexander Hanff
Thats the key statement for me. To put it another way, for the 14 days before the data is purged, it is possible for the data to be released accidentally or deliberately.

Edit: I am referring, of course, to these "research and debug" logs of which there has been very little information provided.
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:30   #1476
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by OF1975 View Post
Thats the key statement for me. To put it another way, for the 14 days before the data is purged, it is possible for the data to be released accidentally or deliberately.
Its the "research" part of "research and debug logs" which concerns me. They clearly stated in one of their oh so honest "Answers to Questions" statements that it was debug logs only pertaining to server information. WTF are research logs and WTF do they contain and WTF have these guys not been exiled from the UK yet?

Alexander Hanff
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:36   #1477
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Its the "research" part of "research and debug logs" which concerns me. They clearly stated in one of their oh so honest "Answers to Questions" statements that it was debug logs only pertaining to server information. WTF are research logs and WTF do they contain and WTF have these guys not been exiled from the UK yet?

Alexander Hanff
Exactly. The term "research" gives plenty of scope for all kinds of practices and there has been next to no information given as to precisely what kind of information these logs may contain and precisely what use will be made of them. An awful lot can go wrong in the 14 days these logs are kept before being purged. Thats if we even believe Phorm when they say that they will be purged.

Edit: Additionally, they do say that these logs will be kept on a seperate system. Will this seperate system be within the ISP network? If not then where will they be kept? Will they be kept in this country?
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Old 19-03-2008, 21:48   #1478
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Protected my ass Just don't use an Adobe PDF viewer (the default PDF document viewer in Ubuntu works fine):
Alexander Hanff
I'm currently working on a Mac and it opened in Preview, which honours file locking, apparently... I'm new to Macs, so please make allowances....
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Old 19-03-2008, 22:00   #1479
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post

If Phorm had any common sense they would drop the UK market like a hot stone, this controversy has lost them tens of millions of GBP in share capital over the past 3 weeks.

They would be better off concentrating their efforts on the US, who are bound to lap this up given their existing and historical stance on privacy.

At least that way their share price -might- start to recover

Mind you I am waiting for them to launch in the US so EFF can take them and their partners straight to court,

only the federal government are allowed to use illegal wiretaps
(well they aren't really according to the Senate Oversight Committee or whatever they are called, but Bush like to think he is immune).

Alexander Hanff
carrage returns are GOOD

it seems this other NebuAD outfit are in the US right now.

do the US actually have any DPA or RIPA type laws to protect their consumers data etc?.
Wide Open West Using NebuAD
Users don't get much of a heads up...
09:02AM Tuesday Mar 11 2008 by Karl
tags: business · cable · privacy · networking · WOW Internet and Cable

A user for cable operator Wide Open West writes in: "Just thought you'd like to know, that I'm suspicious of my ISP, Wide Open West.

I'm in the Chicagoland area, and it sure looks like they're allowing NebuAD to infect their network (sorry - my personal interpretation...I'm quite peeved about this) and altering pages to include their tracking cookies.

To my knowledge I received no forewarning that they'd be trying this stunt."

...
"
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Old 19-03-2008, 22:36   #1480
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

This has been posted by a BT rep on the BT webwise Beta site.

Quote:
Can I apologise for not posting any updates for the past few days. This is due to us nailing down the details of the new opt out solution that would remove the need for opt out cookies altogether. As well as ensuring that once opted out no user data would be mirrored by BT Webwise. We're still working on this new opt out solution and therefore we won't be able give you any updates until the details of this are confirmed as any information we could give you now might be subject to change.

Also as Adam has already stated the BT Webwise trial has not yet started and we will announce the details of it here first, along with any other announcements we make about BT Webwise.

Currently we're hoping that we'll be able to post another update in this thread next week.
So they are still going to force there user into a OPT OUT.

VirginMedia i hope you don't do that or i can see you losing plenty of customers, Me being one of them.
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Old 19-03-2008, 22:46   #1481
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius View Post
This has been posted by a BT rep on the BT webwise Beta site.



So they are still going to force there user into a OPT OUT.

VirginMedia i hope you don't do that or i can see you losing plenty of customers, Me being one of them.
At least BT are now saying that if opted-out, their users won't have their clickstream data mirrored or profiled. I wonder if the new opt-out system will be at the network level (as it should be), or still rely on crappy cookies. And nobody has yet answered any of the technical questions about how an opt-out would work in practice for users who block the Phorm cookies altogether...

Time to start talking, VM....
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Old 19-03-2008, 22:51   #1482
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhormUKPRteam View Post
Seeing as there aren't really separate threads in this discussion, thought this might be of interest to the main group here,
...
Today's ICO survey
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7304455.stm) on data protection highlights why the Phorm system is actually an improvement in online privacy.
thats classic PhormUKPRteam, BUT you forget


"...The poll for the Information Commissioner's Office (ICO) found that three-quarters of us were more worried than ever over access to personal data.
And 70% said they felt powerless over how organisations kept an eye on data...."

thats you and yours trying to take our data for your own profit.

your in effect saying 'Phorm (and its gifted kit to co-conspiritor ISPs) trying to comercially pirate your data is better than not pirating your data', errm really... for them and theirs perhaps.

our pirated data is infact paying your PR wage from the unlawful profits your clients made and hope to continue to make.

with your PR skills, you could be informing this 70% of UK Consumers of their DPA and RIPA rights and how its actually their data to profit from or not as they see fit.

would you like to be on the right legal and moral side for once in your life (or is it just money to you), and how much do you an yours charge?
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Old 20-03-2008, 00:20   #1483
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

It's Official - 80/20 Thinking DOES NOT endorse Phorm! See this comment from Simon Davies to the latest El Reg article:

The conflict of interest issue - our response
By Simon Davies
Posted Wednesday 19th March 2008 17:33 GMT

The record needs to be set out in full regarding the “conflict of interest” claim relating to 80/20 Thinking and Privacy International. I have no objection to public discussion about the matter, as long as the facts are laid out in full, rather than relying on a twisted, abbreviated account.

Will people please read our report to Phorm. Read it in its brief entirety. Once you’ll do, you’ll realise that there are no conflicts whatever. In that report we argue that the system should be opt-in, that there are unresolved questions, that the matter of legal compliance is irrelevant to the issue of intrusion.

For example, from page 10 of our PIA:

"Phorm liaised with the Home Office to assess whether its system could infringe the UK law that regulates communications surveillance. The Home Office concluded that Phorm's system is consistent with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act and does not intercept communications. While this conclusion is a fair interpretation of Phorm and the system's capabilities, communications monitoring still takes place. Even if the Home Office's conclusions were appropriate and relevant, it would mean that if an ISP or any government wished to conduct similar monitoring of communications for segmentation purposes, albeit with consent of the user, then they may indeed do so and yet still be compliant with UK law. This could indeed give rise to a worrying situation."

Yes, FIPR has lodged a detailed complaint with the ICO. That complaint dealt with matters outside 80/20s remit. There is no conflict there.

Is there a conflict between our role in PI and our role in 80/20? Absolutely not. See above. My view is on the record at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm Read beyond the headline.

People have asked: “Why are they doing this?” “Why are they advising the evil empire?” Two reasons. First, we believe that engagement is more constructive than non-engagement unless there is no alternative. As PI we have directly engaged companies such as SWIFT, Microsoft and eBay with positive results for privacy.

Second, the British Public, who apparently SO support PI, donate an average of £130 a year to us. We receive more from citizens of India, even during the height of the ID card battle. I, for one, haven’t drawn a salary from PI for eighteen years. That is not a sustainable situation. Nor is it for my staff. Our supporters believe in an ideal, but some seem to believe we must be willing for us to go to our graves principled but penniless. There is a Thatcherite condition that prevails. Namely, that many supporters will make financial contributions to people like us as long as they have some sort of formalised stake in the enterprise. We never played that game.

What is 80/20 Thinking? Check out www.8020thinking.com and find out the details. Or go straight to http://www.8020thinking.com/ethics.html and you’ll see that in fact this company is very much in the advocacy realm, and is intentionally set up to distribute fifty percent of its profits to NGO civil liberties campaigners in developing countries.

Please allow me the pleasure of a small personal reflection. It seems to me, looking back over nearly two decades as an activist, that people were always willing to hail me – and PI – as heroes and visionaries, on the strict condition that we reflected everything without deviation or hesitation that they personally believed. On CCTV, ID cards, children’s fingerprinting, US relations, police powers, DNA databases, going back further to the crypto wars and even further back in dim history to CLI and the telephone battles of the early 1990s, you were always there for us as long as we agreed with you on every point.

So we disagree on one paragraph, namely, our point that personal information has been removed from the Phorm system “as defined in the UK DPA”. If you want to demonise us for making that observation, then go ahead. At a personal level, I find that level of aggression unnecessary. I understand you are concerned about alleged endorsement, but let me reassure you that if we ever endorsed a product, you’d know about it. The last time we endorsed anything was PGP in the era of Phil Zimmermann.

Simon Davies


Pay particular attention to the last paragraph and even more attention to the last sentence:

"I understand you are concerned about alleged endorsement, but let me reassure you that if we ever endorsed a product, you’d know about it. The last time we endorsed anything was PGP in the era of Phil Zimmermann."

So, that pretty much destroys Phorm's claim that 80/20 Endorse and Support their technology.

Don't clap just throw money

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 23:20 ---------- Previous post was at 23:11 ----------

Here is one for all you VM users (from the same El Reg article comments as my previous post):

Well VirginMedia.....
By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 19th March 2008 22:09 GMT
Flame

....have already implemented this system and it is running. They say on their site they will reveal information closer to roll-out but upon scanning my machine and using a packet scanner on my internet connection it seems they are already using this system.

I wonder for how long now.....

Burn VM Burn


Have any of you guys done any tcpdumps or tcptraceroutes to see if this is the case yet? It could explain why VM are being so quiet about all this. Could we be seeing criminal charges against BT and VM this spring? This is better than "Neighbours" & "Corrie".

Alexander Hanff
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Old 20-03-2008, 00:38   #1484
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by popper View Post
been there, done that, got no answers to the questions put....

generic answers are such fun....
and this ones not been mentioned in a while.

  1. If you are a customer of BT Retail (or of any other BT divisions e.g. BT Business) , Virgin Media or Carphone Warehouse Talk Talk, or any other company that thinks to profile your data for advertising , then you might like to write to them quoting the very clear The Data Protection Act 1998 section 11:
    1. 11 Right to prevent processing for purposes of direct marketing
    2. (1) An individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing for the purposes of direct marketing personal data in respect of which he is the data subject.
    3. (2) If the court is satisfied, on the application of any person who has given a notice under subsection (1), that the data controller has failed to comply with the notice, the court may order him to take such steps for complying with the notice as the court thinks fit.
    4. (3) In this section "direct marketing" means the communication (by whatever means) of any advertising or marketing material which is directed to particular individuals.
So, that being the case, what do you reckon to the following DPA notice?:

"Data Protection Notice

I write regarding the intention of Virgin Media to implement Phorm’s system known as “webwise” on your broadband network. I have studied the available information on the technical functionality of this system, and I do not want it to be applied to my internet connection. Please note that I am fully aware of the opt-out system requiring either the placing of a cookie on my computer or the blocking of access to certain domains, but I reject these methods for the reason outlined below:

Despite the offer of an opt-out to prevent me receiving targeted advertising from this system, it is apparent that my web browsing data could still be mirrored to, and analyzed by, Phorm-supplied hardware within your network. Although assurances have been made by Phorm that if I opt-out of the system, no data pertaining to my web browsing habits will be passed from that hardware to Phorm or it’s associates, no assurance has been given that the mirroring and/or profiling of my data will not still take place within the Virgin Media network, and this is unacceptable to me.

According to Phorm, the mirroring and profiling hardware that they supply becomes the property of Virgin Media, so that being the case, I would like to draw your attention to Section 11 of The Data Protection Act 1998 which give me the right to require you to cease, or not begin, processing my data for the purposes of direct marketing.

I hereby inform you that I exercise that right, and prohibit you from routing, mirroring, processing or profiling data traveling to or from my internet connection using any equipment supplied to you for the purpose of operating the Phorm system.

In the event that you receive this letter before the webwise system has been implemented, then it constitutes my standing instruction to you to not begin processing my data in the way outlined above in the future."

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------

Quote:
Here is one for all you VM users (from the same El Reg article comments as my previous post):

Well VirginMedia.....
By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 19th March 2008 22:09 GMT
Flame

....have already implemented this system and it is running. They say on their site they will reveal information closer to roll-out but upon scanning my machine and using a packet scanner on my internet connection it seems they are already using this system.

I wonder for how long now.....

Burn VM Burn


Have any of you guys done any tcpdumps or tcptraceroutes to see if this is the case yet? It could explain why VM are being so quiet about all this. Could we be seeing criminal charges against BT and VM this spring? This is better than "Neighbours" & "Corrie".

Alexander Hanff
I think it unlikely they'd risk running a covert trial after the heat BT have been getting over their's last July - but who knows? It's even less likely they'd roll it out system-wide without the one-time "welcome/opt-out" screen that Kent Ertugrul keeps banging-on about.... also, I've been clearing my cookies out a lot over the last few days to see what was being dropped on my system, and I haven't seen any recurring UID cookies appearing....
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Old 20-03-2008, 00:47   #1485
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucevans View Post
So, that being the case, what do you reckon to the following DPA notice?:

"Data Protection Notice

I write regarding the intention of Virgin Media to implement Phorm’s system known as “webwise” on your broadband network. I have studied the available information on the technical functionality of this system, and I do not want it to be applied to my internet connection. Please note that I am fully aware of the opt-out system requiring either the placing of a cookie on my computer or the blocking of access to certain domains, but I reject these methods for the reason outlined below:

Despite the offer of an opt-out to prevent me receiving targeted advertising from this system, it is apparent that my web browsing data could still be mirrored to, and analyzed by, Phorm-supplied hardware within your network. Although assurances have been made by Phorm that if I opt-out of the system, no data pertaining to my web browsing habits will be passed from that hardware to Phorm or it’s associates, no assurance has been given that the mirroring and/or profiling of my data will not still take place within the Virgin Media network, and this is unacceptable to me.

According to Phorm, the mirroring and profiling hardware that they supply becomes the property of Virgin Media, so that being the case, I would like to draw your attention to Section 11 of The Data Protection Act 1998 which give me the right to require you to cease, or not begin, processing my data for the purposes of direct marketing.

I hereby inform you that I exercise that right, and prohibit you from routing, mirroring, processing or profiling data traveling to or from my internet connection using any equipment supplied to you for the purpose of operating the Phorm system.

In the event that you receive this letter before the webwise system has been implemented, then it constitutes my standing instruction to you to not begin processing my data in the way outlined above in the future."

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------



I think it unlikely they'd risk running a covert trial after the heat BT have been getting over their's last July - but who knows? It's even less likely they'd roll it out system-wide without the one-time "welcome/opt-out" screen that Kent Ertugrul keeps banging-on about.... also, I've been clearing my cookies out a lot over the last few days to see what was being dropped on my system, and I haven't seen any recurring UID cookies appearing....
This is the second comment I have seen on The Register regarding Virgin already using Phorm. The first one stated that VM support told them that the system was already running and there was no way to opt out. I never publicised the first comment because it was contrary to the email responses reported elsewhere from VM saying it was not yet implemented, but when I see 2 claims that it is, I get a little more persuaded that it -may- be true. Ultimately we need a bunch of you guys who are actually using VM to run the tests for yourself and see if it is true.

Alexander Hanff
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