Coronavirus

[Pierre]

The EU approach to the vaccine issue is like the EU turning up at the AZ butcher on Christmas eve morning and ordering 90 turkeys...............


EU - "Our French supplier hasn't got any so we're short"

AZ - "We'll do our best but were not geared up to give you all 90."

EU - "Well you're supplying Britain?"

AZ - "Yes but they ordered 5 months ago and helped build the farm. We can give you what we've got, maybe 30"

EU- "But we didn't know if it worked 5 months ago"

AZ - "Neither did the UK but they had faith in their science and invested money on behalf of the world"

EU - "Well I'll sue you then...and tell everyone your turkeys are poisonous"

Later that day...

EU - "Sorry about that, your turkeys are fine but now no one wants your turkey. However even though we've got 7 spare at home, we still demand the 90 turkeys, oh and by the way this isn't our fault"

[nomadking]

The EU should recognise that where a product is supplied in two parts, specially with a time constraint on it's supply, then the supplier is contractually obliged to supplied the 2nd part, once it has delivered the 1st part. Pfizer need to supply the UK with the required 2nd doses.

Perhaps the UK could reassure the EU, that any Pfizer vaccine supplied will only initially only be used for 2nd doses.

[Hom3r]

On Friday I booked my first Jab, which I will get Monday morning at 9:20am, best of all its a 5 minute drive away.

Originally Posted by Mr K

Just a shame we've made the isolationist choices we've made over the past few years. This is a classic example on why acting together with other countries makes us stronger. On our own we're weaker and vulnerable in the marketplace.

I was browsing back through this thread this afternoon and came across this absolute nugget, from the mid-November days when the first vaccine trials results started coming through and we all started looking closely at what the UK and EU had in their preorder portfolios. At issue here was the fact that the EU had preordered from Moderna and we hadn’t.

How I LOLed.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Chris

I was browsing back through this thread this afternoon and came across this absolute nugget, from the mid-November days when the first vaccine trials results started coming through and we all started looking closely at what the UK and EU had in their preorder portfolios. At issue here was the fact that the EU had preordered from Moderna and we hadn’t.

How I LOLed.

A classic example of Mr K's insight.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's almost the exact opposite of everything you've said, highly irresponsible, negligent and with potential consequences for not only their country but the entire planet

Spot on.

Originally Posted by Pierre

The EU approach to the vaccine issue is like the EU turning up at the AZ butcher on Christmas eve morning and ordering 90 turkeys...............


EU - "Our French supplier hasn't got any so we're short"

AZ - "We'll do our best but were not geared up to give you all 90."

EU - "Well you're supplying Britain?"

AZ - "Yes but they ordered 5 months ago and helped build the farm. We can give you what we've got, maybe 30"

EU- "But we didn't know if it worked 5 months ago"

AZ - "Neither did the UK but they had faith in their science and invested money on behalf of the world"

EU - "Well I'll sue you then...and tell everyone your turkeys are poisonous"

Later that day...

EU - "Sorry about that, your turkeys are fine but now no one wants your turkey. However even though we've got 7 spare at home, we still demand the 90 turkeys, oh and by the way this isn't our fault"

They are corrupt to the core and a pathetic con job organisation. 17.4 Million still make me proud.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

It's almost the exact opposite of everything you've said, highly irresponsible, negligent and with potential consequences for not only their country but the entire planet

I don’t really see how that can be true. It’s not an absolute ban it’s simply moving as emerging data improves. If we are truly interested in the “entire planet” we should remove the IP rights on all vaccines and get production ramped up. Otherwise a time delay on subset of the population in France is likely to have negligible impact on the global response or inevitable emergence of vaccine resistant mutations.

However some good news that should finally end the uncertainty is the outcome of the Phase 3 US clinical trials showing 79% efficacy. While not one to necessarily trust the BBC quick fire analysis the published data should let more independent sources crunch the numbers.

The USA says AZ is a-ok: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56479462

Results from the long-awaited US trial of the Oxford-AstraZeneca Covid vaccine are out and confirm that the shot is both safe and highly effective.

More than 32,000 volunteers took part, mostly in America, but also in Chile and Peru.

The vaccine was 79% effective at stopping symptomatic Covid disease and 100% effective at preventing people from falling seriously ill.

And there were no safety issues regarding blood clots.

That should further reassure some EU countries that recently paused rollout of the vaccine amid concerns about a possible link.

They're asking for FDA approval.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I don’t really see how that can be true. It’s not an absolute ban it’s simply moving as emerging data improves. If we are truly interested in the “entire planet” we should remove the IP rights on all vaccines and get production ramped up. Otherwise a time delay on subset of the population in France is likely to have negligible impact on the global response or inevitable emergence of vaccine resistant mutations.

However some good news that should finally end the uncertainty is the outcome of the Phase 3 US clinical trials showing 79% efficacy. While not one to necessarily trust the BBC quick fire analysis the published data should let more independent sources crunch the numbers.

Where is your evidence that a block on IP rights is being imposed and is causing delays? For the AZ vaccine, the only requirement that might be a sticking point, is that it has to be supplied at cost.
The EU is threatening to hijack IP rights, but then what? They would still need to build and set up any manufacturing sites, and that takes time. Are they planning to produce AZ vaccine for a profit?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Where is your evidence that a block on IP rights is being imposed and is causing delays? For the AZ vaccine, the only requirement that might be a sticking point, is that it has to be supplied at cost.
The EU is threatening to hijack IP rights, but then what? They would still need to build and set up any manufacturing sites, and that takes time. Are they planning to produce AZ vaccine for a profit?

I wasn't referring to the EU specifically but it stands to reason that if anyone could manufacture any of the vaccines it would ramp up production.

While there would be some scope for unscrupulous profiteering in the short term as supply ramped up to meet demand this would be limited.

My only point was that limiting who can (and where) a vaccine can be manufactured creates supply side blocks. Even when the UK, EU and USA have all been vaccinated we are some considerable distance from the "entire planet" being vaccinated which was the point I was addressing about delays in the French under 55s being vaccinated.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I wasn't referring to the EU specifically but it stands to reason that if anyone could manufacture any of the vaccines it would ramp up production.

While there would be some scope for unscrupulous profiteering in the short term as supply ramped up to meet demand this would be limited.

My only point was that limiting who can (and where) a vaccine can be manufactured creates supply side blocks. Even when the UK, EU and USA have all been vaccinated we are some considerable distance from the "entire planet" being vaccinated which was the point I was addressing about delays in the French under 55s being vaccinated.

Many countries do produce vaccines. Where is your evidence that anybody is being blocked from using any IP?
The EU has set up new sites and expanded existing ones. Their problem is they left it too late and/or are for vaccines not yet approved.
The world's third biggest vaccine maker, Sanofi of France, came up with duds. That will have delayed EU production massively. That was the "luck of the draw". AZ vaccine might have turned out to be a dud, as with Pfizer, Moderna, etc.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Many countries do produce vaccines. Where is your evidence that anybody is being blocked from using any IP?
The EU has set up new sites and expanded existing ones. Their problem is they left it too late and/or are for vaccines not yet approved.
The world's third biggest vaccine maker, Sanofi of France, came up with duds. That will have delayed EU production massively. That was the "luck of the draw". AZ vaccine might have turned out to be a dud, as with Pfizer, Moderna, etc.

I'm not sure the point you are arguing to be honest.

Clearly the manufacturers are holding exclusive rights over their own vaccines. This isn't surprising - it's industry standard.

Nobody can just open a plant in India, China or elsewhere and start making the vaccines at cost without infringing on the rights of Pfizer, Astrazenica, Moderna or anyone else who has a successful vaccine candidate.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm not sure the point you are arguing to be honest.

Clearly the manufacturers are holding exclusive rights over their own vaccines. This isn't surprising - it's industry standard.

Nobody can just open a plant in India, China or elsewhere and start making the vaccines at cost without infringing on the rights of Pfizer, Astrazenica, Moderna or anyone else who has a successful vaccine candidate.

You stated "If we are truly interested in the “entire planet” we should remove the IP rights on all vaccines and get production ramped up.". What difference would that make unless there has been a block on somebody producing it?
It takes time to expand an existing plant or open a new one. Eg Some French investment of June 2020 has yet to come online.

The UK benefited from government investment in vaccine production before last year. We got ahead of the game.
Link

In 2018, UKRI announced £66 million for the UK’s first dedicated Vaccine Manufacturing Innovation Centre (VMIC). The goal was to promote, develop and accelerate the growth of the UK vaccine industry.
Also in 2018, the Vaccine Manufacturing and Research Centre was established by the Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council (EPSRC).
This was to find new ways to support vaccine manufacturing and delivery in low and middle income countries.
Alongside these landmark projects, UKRI funded many others to ensure the UK would have the capability to manufacture and distribute a vaccine when the time came.

[jonbxx]

The word we are discussing here is Biosimilars. Which are 'generic' biological drugs. Freeing up the IP would create a big biosimilar market. A lot of countries such as India, Gulf states, Brazil, Turkey, South Africa are getting big into biosimilars.

There are some issues with skills. If you look at countries who do a lot of pharmaceutical work, you tend to find the companies are quite bunched together. Ireland is a great example with LOADS of companies based around Dublin and Cork. Ireland invested heavily some years back to grow a pharmaceutical industry through targeted education and big tax breaks. There is now a critical mass of educated people in Ireland who tend to flit from company to company and Ireland is an attractive country to set up shop now.

Countries need to grow that skills base or buy it in. India is growing it, the gulf states are buying it in.

One big reason why companies won't release their IP for these vaccines is that the technology can be very useful once known. Once you know how to modify and produce an adenovirus or mRNA vaccine for one disease, it takes no time to make a different vaccine. This is how the AZ and Pfizer vaccines came out so quick. Knowing how to make a vaccine quickly is great but you wouldn't want to spread that around too much.