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The state benefits system mega-thread.
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Old 07-01-2014, 03:47   #751
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

I left school in the 70's, me and a few mates, who left at the same time, all got a job at the same place. After so long I got bored and started another job right away, I got bored several times until I was finally happy with the job I found. There seemed to be loads of jobs for the taking back then, it was great.

I wouldn't like to be a school leaver now, or anyone who's out of work for that matter. It must be so difficult to cope, especially when almost every bit of news in the media is about job cuts, benefit cuts, benefit scroungers, immigrants, mass immigration, immigration, immigration and even more immigration... it has to be the most talked about subject out there.

I can only see it getting worse, there will be rioting on the streets, people will have had enough, they will have nothing to lose, no job, no money and no hope. At least in prison it's warm, you get fed, fit and educated.

I'd say the government / powers that be, know exactly what they're doing, it's as if this is what they want, they want to destroy the country.

If you're going to vote in the future, then my advice is to spoil it by voting for none of the above. I honestly find it ridiculous that there are still hundreds of thousands of people out there that will vote for the same dishonest, corrupt parties. They are laughing at us! Even UKIP, they'll all stab you in the back, and I guarantee you that whoever you vote in, you'll be calling for them to resign within a year, and all they will do is point the finger and blame the previous lot of scoundrels... Oh yeah, and the poor, working class and the disabled will carry on paying the price.

Things need to change, but I can only see a change for the better happening by the situation getting worse, ie even more suffering.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:03   #752
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
If I were interested in law breakers, I'd be focusing on tax evaders. Convenielntly, that graphic doesnt separate out 'avoid' (legal) from 'evade' (illegal).

I wonder who made it, and what their agenda is?
Avoidance schemes aren't legal, the most aggressive lurk in murky waters that need a legal challenge to prove their illegitimacy, it's very convenient that a large number of the public excuse these shysters practices by saying 'avoidance = legal' rather than give them the benefit of the doubt I'm all in favour of lumping then in together until legality is proven.
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Old 07-01-2014, 08:23   #753
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

But how tough will any government be on tax avoidance? Risk losing UK investment by business who will say "other companies get away with and other countries allow it so let's go there"? I dislike many of Amazon's working practises plus their use of tax loopholes however they do employ a lot of people in unemployment blackspots.
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Old 07-01-2014, 09:12   #754
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

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Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Avoidance schemes aren't legal, the most aggressive lurk in murky waters that need a legal challenge to prove their illegitimacy, it's very convenient that a large number of the public excuse these shysters practices by saying 'avoidance = legal' rather than give them the benefit of the doubt I'm all in favour of lumping then in together until legality is proven.
In matters of law, it is traditional to require proof of wrongdoing, not vice versa. That may seem inconvenient to you, but it is a protection you withdraw at your own peril because it protects you from a capricious or vindictive government just as anyone else, including those that use tax avoidance schemes.

On which point, it's very convenient of you to point to the murky end of the spectrum where HMRC should most certainly be looking to prove wrongdoing, then implying that this is the entire meaning of 'avoidance'. Tax avoidance starts with everyone who ever put money in an ISA, travels through well-worn practices such as the self-employed tradesman who buys new equipment for his business this year rather than next, to offset against his tax bill and maybe avoid going over a threshold, and winds a very long road before it ends up in the sorts of places you're pointing at.

My question is, when people post up big graphics that lump in avoidance (legal) with evasion (illegal), exactly where have they drawn the line between the avoidance they count in their figures and the avoidance they leave out? Do they leave any out at all?
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Old 07-01-2014, 10:39   #755
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
In matters of law, it is traditional to require proof of wrongdoing, not vice versa. That may seem inconvenient to you, but it is a protection you withdraw at your own peril because it protects you from a capricious or vindictive government just as anyone else, including those that use tax avoidance schemes.

On which point, it's very convenient of you to point to the murky end of the spectrum where HMRC should most certainly be looking to prove wrongdoing, then implying that this is the entire meaning of 'avoidance'. Tax avoidance starts with everyone who ever put money in an ISA, travels through well-worn practices such as the self-employed tradesman who buys new equipment for his business this year rather than next, to offset against his tax bill and maybe avoid going over a threshold, and winds a very long road before it ends up in the sorts of places you're pointing at.

My question is, when people post up big graphics that lump in avoidance (legal) with evasion (illegal), exactly where have they drawn the line between the avoidance they count in their figures and the avoidance they leave out? Do they leave any out at all?
How the hell is an isa an aggressive tax avoidance scheme, you play straight into their hands you really do, time and again courts decree specific aggressive tax avoidance schemes illegal and people like yourself still call out 'what their doing isn't illegal it's avoidance'
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:25   #756
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
How the hell is an isa an aggressive tax avoidance scheme, you play straight into their hands you really do, time and again courts decree specific aggressive tax avoidance schemes illegal and people like yourself still call out 'what their doing isn't illegal it's avoidance'
An ISA is not an 'aggressive tax avoidance scheme'. And 'aggressive tax avoidance scheme' is not a phrase used in the graphic posted above.

The word used in the graphic is 'avoidance'. 'Avoidance' is a very broad spectrum which, at one end, has common practice such as ISA use.

So, I pose the questions again: do you think the person that compiled the graphic has been in any way discerning about what figures to include? Are all avoidance measures included? If not, where was the line drawn? What criteria did the person compiling the graphic use to determine which (legal) tax avoidance measures to include alongside (illegal) tax evasion and which to leave out?
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Old 07-01-2014, 11:55   #757
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

I wonder where the Tax Justice and PCS got their £30 billion figure from (even though they quote it is from HRMC), as the HMRC reported to Parliament it was between five and ten billion?

http://www.publications.parliament.u...cc/788/788.pdf page 3
Quote:
HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) estimates that in 2010-11 the tax gap due to avoidance was £5 billion. HMRC further estimates that the present total tax at risk from avoidance over time is £10.2 billion.
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Old 07-01-2014, 13:31   #758
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy-J View Post
I left school in the 70's, me and a few mates, who left at the same time, all got a job at the same place. After so long I got bored and started another job right away, I got bored several times until I was finally happy with the job I found. There seemed to be loads of jobs for the taking back then, it was great.

I wouldn't like to be a school leaver now, or anyone who's out of work for that matter. It must be so difficult to cope, especially when almost every bit of news in the media is about job cuts, benefit cuts, benefit scroungers, immigrants, mass immigration, immigration, immigration and even more immigration... it has to be the most talked about subject out there.

I can only see it getting worse, there will be rioting on the streets, people will have had enough, they will have nothing to lose, no job, no money and no hope. At least in prison it's warm, you get fed, fit and educated.

I'd say the government / powers that be, know exactly what they're doing, it's as if this is what they want, they want to destroy the country.

If you're going to vote in the future, then my advice is to spoil it by voting for none of the above. I honestly find it ridiculous that there are still hundreds of thousands of people out there that will vote for the same dishonest, corrupt parties. They are laughing at us! Even UKIP, they'll all stab you in the back, and I guarantee you that whoever you vote in, you'll be calling for them to resign within a year, and all they will do is point the finger and blame the previous lot of scoundrels... Oh yeah, and the poor, working class and the disabled will carry on paying the price.

Things need to change, but I can only see a change for the better happening by the situation getting worse, ie even more suffering.
Excellent post,apart from the immigration part,many folk have left these shores seeking a better life,many have also came to the U.K. in search of a better life,is there any difference?

---------- Post added at 12:31 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
In matters of law, it is traditional to require proof of wrongdoing, not vice versa. That may seem inconvenient to you, but it is a protection you withdraw at your own peril because it protects you from a capricious or vindictive government just as anyone else, including those that use tax avoidance schemes.

On which point, it's very convenient of you to point to the murky end of the spectrum where HMRC should most certainly be looking to prove wrongdoing, then implying that this is the entire meaning of 'avoidance'. Tax avoidance starts with everyone who ever put money in an ISA, travels through well-worn practices such as the self-employed tradesman who buys new equipment for his business this year rather than next, to offset against his tax bill and maybe avoid going over a threshold, and winds a very long road before it ends up in the sorts of places you're pointing at.

My question is, when people post up big graphics that lump in avoidance (legal) with evasion (illegal), exactly where have they drawn the line between the avoidance they count in their figures and the avoidance they leave out? Do they leave any out at all?
I did the big graphic so that those Tories who may be of short sightedness may be able tae view it,come tae think about it,it may need tae be a bit larger methinks.
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Old 07-01-2014, 13:51   #759
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Why the 'mock Scottish'? (especially as you are English).

btw, you seem to be avoiding Chris's question with polemic....
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Old 07-01-2014, 13:55   #760
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
Why the 'mock Scottish'? (especially as you are English).
I guess its simply because I've spent 63 years up here,is that okay?

As for Chris,he's too set in his ways,as I am set in mine,he'll say white,I'll say black.
Perhaps he can answer this,seeing as he's such a bright spark.
The Dept of Work and Pensions have roughly 3,250 staff investigating benefit fraud of £1.2bn. HMRC has just over 300 staff investigating tax evasion of £120bn,can he explain it or will he come away with even more claptrap (again).
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Old 07-01-2014, 14:11   #761
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

At a guess, I would say it's because with benefits, there are a larger number of people individually contributing to the total, whereas with tax, a smaller number of people or businesses are responsible for a larger chunk each.
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Old 07-01-2014, 14:19   #762
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi View Post
I guess its simply because I've spent 63 years up here,is that okay?

As for Chris,he's too set in his ways,as I am set in mine,he'll say white,I'll say black.
Perhaps he can answer this,seeing as he's such a bright spark.
The Dept of Work and Pensions have roughly 3,250 staff investigating benefit fraud of £1.2bn. HMRC has just over 300 staff investigating tax evasion of £120bn,can he explain it or will he come away with even more claptrap (again).
I think you will find it is around £10 billion (by their estimates), as I posted (from their information) earlier...

Even the Guardian gives an estimate of £30 billion (HMRC gap analysis of tax collected versus tax estimated to be collected), of which £10 billion (that figure again) is avoidance/evasion.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...-tax-avoidance

Just repeating something a lot, doesn't make it factual.....
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Old 07-01-2014, 14:49   #763
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

and of course there is no way the figures have been massaged to hide the problem is there? Of course no tory voter/ supporter would ever want to avoid paying large chunks of their tax would they?

Some people here quote government figures like they are gospel are you all really that naive???
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Old 07-01-2014, 15:37   #764
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

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and of course there is no way the figures have been massaged to hide the problem is there? Of course no tory voter/ supporter would ever want to avoid paying large chunks of their tax would they?

Some people here quote government figures like they are gospel are you all really that naive???
We can use made up figures if you want

The reason official figures are quoted is because those are the figures that are accepted by other institutions .Of course you can feel free to challenge those figures, and many do but they usually they have their own figures backed up by research and evidence so they stand up to scrutiny ,not just plucked out of fresh air
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Old 07-01-2014, 15:41   #765
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Re: The state benefits system mega-thread. Many merged.

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We can use made up figures if you want

The reason official figures are quoted is because those are the figures that are accepted by other institutions .Of course you can feel free to challenge those figures, and many do but they usually they have their own figures backed up by research and evidence so they stand up to scrutiny ,not just plucked out of fresh air
I personally prefer to just blanket not trust the government. It works for me as far as I am concerned they are all lying cheating self serving slime and I am not a sheep

I also think the same of Labour and Liberals and even UKIP even though I am a member I just want out of the EU
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