Brexit discussion

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Hugh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44446632

Surely you cannot be saying that some of the people that voted Leave did so on the basis of lies and misinformation by Mr Farage et al? I mean, as we all know, everyone knows what they voted for and is more than happy to reiterate it at regular intervals.

To explore this ridiculous idea a bit further, are you saying that the majority gained in the EU Referendum may not have been attained if some of the people voting Leave were told the truth and not led up the garden path? I mean, it was the Will of the People after all ...

I’m not saying that, I’m just posting what they said..

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

Democracy allows people who lost a vote to continue to express their opinions and to advocate further change.

Until the required answer is given!

People have well and truly seen through that one, Damien, and that is not what I call democracy. A cynical manipulation of the electorate by the establishment is what that is and I don't accept it.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:47 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Who?

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------


The link you provided was found by Hugh not to support your argument so instead you try and move the debate onto something else entirely. Others can judge what that might mean about the absence of evidence to support your original bold statement.

The chances of economic forecasts being more accurate from skilled professionals working for the British Government are far, far higher than those you and I can conjurte up on the back of a fag packet. It is unfair and slightly arrogant to write off the work of an entire bunch of people in the way you attempt to do.

They are not making incorrect assumptions, they are using the wide range of information they ahve at their disposal and have modelled a range of scenarios. All showed that the UK would perform worse outiside the EU.

Now onto your strawman proposition and ramblings of people apparently forecasting a dystopian future. Humourous stuff yet no one is forecasting abject poverty. What is being forecast is that the UK will perform less well than it would do if the status quo remained.

We will be getting a no tariff trade deal as part of the deal which will be on offer. I accept, however, that we are not there yet with an arrangement on services.

I have not tried to 'move the debate on to something else entirely' as you put it at all. The Brexit debate has many aspects to it, and I'm not going to keep saying the same thing on the same subject many times over to please you. I think I really ought to pull you up for ignoring my point about forecasts being wrong time and again, including about Brexit.

I know of many Remainers who see a dystopian future, Andrew. Glad to see you're not one of them....or so you say.

---------- Post added at 19:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

That article doesn’t mention "tariff free" - it states "tailor-made” trade deal".

And it’s from the 20th December 2017

It says that early on in the report, and later on it mentions a 'Canada style' free trade deal.

I don't see what the date of the article has to do with it. Barnier has been of this view for some time, but remainers tend to ignore that fact.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I’m not saying that, I’m just posting what they said..

That's a relief then

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

People have well and truly seen through that one, Damien, and that is not what I call democracy. A cynical manipulation of the electorate by the establishment is what that is and I don't accept it.

Quite right, OB! A cynical manipulation of the electorate is not what I call democracy either. Oh wait .... you didn't mean the Leave campaign did you? Damn ...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

That's a relief then

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:46 ----------



Quite right, OB! A cynical manipulation of the electorate is not what I call democracy either. Oh wait .... you didn't mean the Leave campaign did you? Damn ...

Just for one minute, I hoped he had left the dark side behind because he's a great chap. I thought the establishment references could only apply to people like Rupert Murdoch, Paul Dacre, Rees-Mogg, the Barclays brother and their Daily Telegraph, millionaire Richard Desmond with his Daily Express and Tim Martin with his Wetherspoons pubs. My bad.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Until the required answer is given!

People have well and truly seen through that one, Damien, and that is not what I call democracy. A cynical manipulation of the electorate by the establishment is what that is and I don't accept it.

It may not be what you call Democracy but dissent is a legitimate part of ours.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Damien

It may not be what you call Democracy but dissent is a legitimate part of ours.

Dissent, yes. But re-runs of referenda until you get the 'right' answer are not.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Dissent, yes. But re-runs of referenda until you get the 'right' answer are not.

No one is proposing that Old Boy. What some are proposing is the public get to vote on the final deal. That's entirely different.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

No one is proposing that Old Boy. What some are proposing is the public get to vote on the final deal. That's entirely different.

I think you are picking hairs, Andrew. We voted to come out. Brexit means Brexit. It's really not complicated!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think you are picking hairs, Andrew. We voted to come out. Brexit means Brexit. It's really not complicated!

If you don't agree with a second vote then by all means say so. But to resort to politicians' talk of calling it reruns of referenda just demotes you to their level. Old Boy, you know you can rise above their sound bites.

Originally Posted by Damien

It may not be what you call Democracy but dissent is a legitimate part of ours.

No-one is saying protests and dissent is not part of democracy. What is NOT democracy, is those trying to reject the vote result by saying we know better than the people that they have chosen the wrong choice, that is dictatorship.

But I haven't advocated that. If OB wants to complain about that do so it someone who did.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Damien

But I haven't advocated that. If OB wants to complain about that do so it someone who did.

Exactly. Why some have to resort to straw men arguments is beyond me.

[jonbxx]

Back to the exit negotiations, another forum pointed me to a nice briefing sheet for the House of Lords comparing the UK Government, European Council and European Parliaments positions on future UK/EU relations - https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...ison-table.pdf

Some nice colour coding with green showing full agreement, yellow showing agreement in principle but without an agreement on the 'how' and red showing no agreement. Old Boy is right in all sides seeking a zero tariff trade agreement for goods. Non-tariff barriers do loom in the Council position though.

Also good news on mutual recognition of qualifications, science and education and culture

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Back to the exit negotiations, another forum pointed me to a nice briefing sheet for the House of Lords comparing the UK Government, European Council and European Parliaments positions on future UK/EU relations - https://www.parliament.uk/documents/...ison-table.pdf

Some nice colour coding with green showing full agreement, yellow showing agreement in principle but without an agreement on the 'how' and red showing no agreement. Old Boy is right in all sides seeking a zero tariff trade agreement for goods. Non-tariff barriers do loom in the Council position though.

Also good news on mutual recognition of qualifications, science and education and culture

Thanks for this helpful and constructive post.

As others have highlighted, the EU would be very keen for a free trade deal in manufactured goods as this is what they sell to us. But the EU is not keen on a free trade deal in services which is what we sell to them.