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UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:27   #46
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
If you're prevented from saying anything, then there is nothing that can be scrutinised. What is complicated or obtuse about that?
He didn’t attempt.

I think we both know we aren’t going to agree here, and these threads continually get closed for circular arguments.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:31   #47
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
He didn’t attempt.

I think we both know we aren’t going to agree here, and these threads continually get closed for circular arguments.
And on that note probably best we all agree to disagree.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:33   #48
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It might be. If the EU is going to agree to it, it quite possibly has to be. But I suspect anyone seen voting down any deal Boris puts to Parliament - any deal at all - is at risk of electoral evisceration. Will the electorate really listen patiently to earnestly delivered excuses about how bad this Brexit would be for Britain, or faux-outraged demands that Boris has to go back to Brussels and bring home an altogether different Brexit? Would the irresistible cry not then be, “well, if you think you can do better, agree to an election and campaign for the right to try”?

Much does perhaps hang on what strategy No.10 has for dealing with the Benn Act, but if they have something even plausible, or if Boris comes back from Brussels with a deal (even May 2.0), then I think Corbyn is totally boxed in.
But how would he square bringing back something that looked like the Bill he refused to support himself?
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:37   #49
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
UK Supreme Court release information on timing and other information... Has a nice link for Case by Case Arguments, which the SC Justices would have reviewed by now.... Looks like a three day affair.

https://www.supremecourt.uk/brexit/index.html
Jings, look at the timetable for Thursday morning. They’re lining up to get their five minutes of fame. Nippy Sturgeon’s sending someone to win her yet another chance to do her trademark head tilt and affected half-laugh on the Scottish news. And John Major’s at it as well. That’ll be riveting.

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
But how would he square bringing back something that looked like the Bill he refused to support himself?
I suspect he’ll breeze through it. The narrative has moved well beyond Theresa May’s guddle of last spring. All anyone is interested in now is whether or not we have a deal by 31 October, and whether or not Boris can make good on his vow to take us out either way.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:40   #50
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I sincerely doubt Boris’ statesman-like posture would be what you would be drawing attention to, had this evening’s news been full of images of him having to raise his voice to be heard over an anti-Brexit protest. . However ... what’s done is done.

What do you make of BoJo’s interview with Laura Kuenssberg? He has gone out of his way to repeat his explicit pledge to get the UK out on 31 October (i gave up counting after about the 8th mention of it in the transcript) while consistently refusing to be drawn on Kuenssberg’s chosen wording about ‘sneaking around’ the law. Do you think it’s hubris, or are you concerned that the Benn Act may not actually achieve what its supporters intended it to?
I haven’t seen the interview, however taking your points as with anything in law there’s probably competing opinions on it. Could be hubris for the People v Parliament election having Brexit “stolen” at the last minute is better for political optics. Either way, Boris gives the same message right now.

I’d not go as far as “concerned” personally. If we leave we leave.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:43   #51
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
Jings, look at the timetable for Thursday morning. They’re lining up to get their five minutes of fame. Nippy Sturgeon’s sending someone to win her yet another chance to do her trademark head tilt and affected half-laugh on the Scottish news. And John Major’s at it as well. That’ll be riveting.

---------- Post added at 20:37 ---------- Previous post was at 20:35 ----------



I suspect he’ll breeze through it. The narrative has moved well beyond Theresa May’s guddle of last spring. All anyone is interested in now is whether or not we have a deal by 31 October, and whether or not Boris can make good on his vow to take us out either way.
Just reading the written cases for Prime Minister and Advocate General for Scotland... I've read up to page 21... the following is clear and should be cut and dry...

Quote:
68. Only Her Majesty may prorogue Parliament: no other person or body in the constitution
has the power to do so. As already noted, no statute regulates prorogation or advice to Her
Majesty in relation to prorogation. Parliament has made specific legislative provisions
regulating its sittings (even if it stands prorogued) in particular contexts as referred to
above. These claims seek to challenge prorogation, even where it conforms to such
legislative control; and invite the courts to rule on advice relating to and decisions
concerning prorogation. It is submitted that that is impermissible, non-justiciable
territory.

69. There are no judicial or manageable standards by reference to which the Court could
review or control an exercise of the prerogative of the present kind. That is because the
prorogation of Parliament is inherently political in nature; and courts cannot weigh
political judgements of this type against legal standards. Moreover, such decisions have
been left by Parliament to the Executive subject to the specific legislative provisions
controlling the sittings of Parliament already noted. It would be constitutionally
inappropriate for the courts to enter the territory.
Bold bits the key to The Government winning this case...
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:45   #52
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Page 21, you’re keen!
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:46   #53
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
He didn’t attempt.

I think we both know we aren’t going to agree here, and these threads continually get closed for circular arguments.
He did. He went out there and heard what was going on. It's not as if he stayed inside.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:51   #54
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It might be. If the EU is going to agree to it, it quite possibly has to be. But I suspect anyone seen voting down any deal Boris puts to Parliament - any deal at all - is at risk of electoral evisceration. Will the electorate really listen patiently to earnestly delivered excuses about how bad this Brexit would be for Britain, or faux-outraged demands that Boris has to go back to Brussels and bring home an altogether different Brexit? Would the irresistible cry not then be, “well, if you think you can do better, agree to an election and campaign for the right to try”?

Much does perhaps hang on what strategy No.10 has for dealing with the Benn Act, but if they have something even plausible, or if Boris comes back from Brussels with a deal (even May 2.0), then I think Corbyn is totally boxed in.
I think everyone is boxed in really. In the aftermath of the referendum we collectively chose a direction that sent both sides down an increasing narrowing path to this point.

We're all wondering what Dominic Cummings' cunning plan is with proroguing Parliament is but it's more likely than not that No 10 felt this was the best choice of a narrow set of options none of which were that good. Likewise Parliament probably didn't want to pass the Benn act, they've resisted working all together so far, but then felt they had to act and now Johnson is faced with an even narrower set of options.

And so it may well come down to a deal which everyone hates but feel compelled to pass. Boris Johnson isn't exactly going to be relishing passing a reheated version of May's deal either. Does it work for him in an election? Farage will scream betrayal and will be after the Tories, the ERG may seek to cause problems to prove their 'true' Brexiter credentials ahead of a possible leadership contest and Remain-minded voters hate him either way.

Long story short: For all the plans and tricks up everyone's sleeves I sort of feel events have got ahead of them all anyway.
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:56   #55
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Just reading the written cases for Prime Minister and Advocate General for Scotland... I've read up to page 21... the following is clear and should be cut and dry...



Bold bits the key to The Government winning this case...
Essentially the same arguments that were put before, and which have won everywhere they’ve been tried except the Inner House of the Supreme Court of Scotland, where I suspect their lordships gave the appellants a consolation prize, knowing it wouldn’t ultimately be their decision anyway. The decision in favour of the appellants in Scotland is absolutely absurd in my view - prorogation is conducted on advice from the PM and using Royal Prerogative. Those two acts occur in a political space devoid of any controlling Act of Parliament. How can the Prime Minister have broken a law that doesn’t exist? By what yardstick can he be said to have been acting improperly? That’s a political judgment, not a judicial one.

---------- Post added at 20:56 ---------- Previous post was at 20:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I haven’t seen the interview, however taking your points as with anything in law there’s probably competing opinions on it. Could be hubris for the People v Parliament election having Brexit “stolen” at the last minute is better for political optics. Either way, Boris gives the same message right now.

I’d not go as far as “concerned” personally. If we leave we leave.
It’s worth a read ... Laura K has written up the transcript, if you’re not near a telly.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49717554
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Old 16-09-2019, 21:58   #56
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
Those who support him would say exactly what you do though. For me, that doesn't wash. It makes the protestors look worse and Boris look statesmanlike if he perseveres and remains reasonable. He's there to get a deal, with a democratic mandate to leave after all...
For all the contempt in which I hold Boris Johnson I think it is also clear the PM of Luxembourg didn't need to hold a press conference next to an empty podium, it was pretty barbed diplomacy to say the least. I don't think they planned it but when the U.K Government clearly wanted to skip the conference the diplomatic approach would be been to join them, not hold it anyway.

Put it this way. If Macron had come to the U.K only to be met with some very loud yellow vest protestors he had wanted to avoid only for Boris Johnson to stand outside with an empty podium anyway we would, rightly, be condemning him for it.

Last edited by Damien; 16-09-2019 at 22:02.
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Old 16-09-2019, 22:02   #57
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
I think everyone is boxed in really. In the aftermath of the referendum we collectively chose a direction that sent both sides down an increasing narrowing path to this point.

We're all wondering what Dominic Cummings' cunning plan is with proroguing Parliament is but it's more likely than not that No 10 felt this was the best choice of a narrow set of options none of which were that good. Likewise Parliament probably didn't want to pass the Benn act, they've resisted working all together so far, but then felt they had to act and now Johnson is faced with an even narrower set of options.

And so it may well come down to a deal which everyone hates but feel compelled to pass. Boris Johnson isn't exactly going to be relishing passing a reheated version of May's deal either. Does it work for him in an election? Farage will scream betrayal and will be after the Tories, the ERG may seek to cause problems to prove their 'true' Brexiter credentials ahead of a possible leadership contest and Remain-minded voters hate him either way.

Long story short: For all the plans and tricks up everyone's sleeves I sort of feel events have got ahead of them all anyway.
In other words ..... a plague on both their houses.

One thing is certain, many books will be written, entire university law and politics modules will have to be rewritten and this will be popping up on ‘remember the time when’ TV shows for decades to come, possibly even at the expense of institutionalised Thatcher-hating, which would be quite something, given it’s the Left’s utterly schizophrenic attitude towards Brexit that has prolonged this (yes, they really, really should have just sat on their hands, let May get the WA through despite the ERG, and then waited for Farage to do their dirty work for them at the next election).
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Old 16-09-2019, 22:05   #58
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

While Luxembourg is trying to humiliate us. Pay back time.

It is well known the UK is a massive NET contributor to the EU, i.e we put more in than we get out...

Luxembourg is one of those Member States that gets more out than it puts in...

For example...

Budgets and Funding
How much does Luxembourg contribute and receive?
Member countries' financial contributions to the EU budget are shared fairly, according to means. The larger your country's economy, the more it pays – and vice versa. The EU budget doesn't aim to redistribute wealth, but rather to focus on the needs of all Europeans as a whole.

Breakdown of Luxembourg’s finances with the EU in 2017:

Total EU spending in Luxembourg: € 1.827 billion
Total EU spending as % of Luxembourg gross national income (GNI): 4.97 %
Total Luxembourg contribution to the EU budget: € 0.307 billion
Luxembourg contribution to the EU budget as % of its GNI: 0.84 %

How much does the UK contribute and receive?
Member countries' financial contributions to the EU budget are shared fairly, according to means. The larger your country's economy, the more it pays – and vice versa. The EU budget doesn't aim to redistribute wealth, but rather to focus on the needs of all Europeans as a whole.

Breakdown of the UK's finances with the EU in 2017:

Total EU spending in the UK: € 6.326 billion
Total EU spending as % of the UK’s gross national income (GNI): 0.28%
Total UK contribution to the EU budget: € 10.575 billion
The UK’s Contribution to the EU budget as % of its GNI: 0.46%
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Old 16-09-2019, 22:07   #59
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

Well I guess he has a reason to be piffed off, at least ...
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Old 16-09-2019, 22:45   #60
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Re: Brexit Development(s) Discussion

French Politician enters the Luxembourg row by suggesting the Luxembourg PM, Xavier Bettel, was trying lay a trap for Boris... latest tweet from Charles-Henri Gallois:-

Quote:
Grotesque mise en scène du Premier ministre luxembourgeois qui a essayé de piéger et de ridiculiser Boris Johnson.

Décidément les eurofanatiques détestent la démocratie et auront absolument tout fait pour renverser le #Brexit !

Translates to:

Grotesque staged by the Luxembourg Prime Minister who tried to trap and ridicule Boris Johnson. Decidedly the Eurofanatists hate democracy and have done everything they can to overthrow the #Brexit !
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