The state benefits system mega-thread.

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by martyh

i didn't say you did .......paranoid much ?

You do however seem to expect others to lie as a matter of course

yes you did as you posted it I'll let you find it.

People do lie and I'd love to live in a world where they don't to be honest.

Originally Posted by dilli-theclaw

yes you did as you posted it I'll let you find it.

People do lie and I'd love to live in a world where they don't to be honest.

I did not say that you think everybody is out to get you ,it is how it looks to me especially as you seem to expect people to lie as a matter of course .Also we aren't talking about people lieing we are talking about ATOS personnel lieing specifically ....note, Weenie said lieing not getting it wrong or advised incorrectly but lieing which implies that ATOS personnel are deliberately ruining peoples lives out of some sort of malicious intent ,i find that somewhat paranoid ,you and a few more of the usual suspects seem to agree that ATOS are lieing ,make of that what you will

Marty so atos don't lie but you presumerably believe those who worked in the sector got disillusioned with how the system works came out and blew the whistle are lying ?. I'm not paranoid at all but I've seen the system first hand and I've worked as a volunteer helping people that opened my eyes a lot. For you to come on here endlessly defending a system that so many from those who worked in it to those who helped create the system and those who advised on it in the past have come out and said it doesn't work with one calling it cruel is a bit funny to me when you talk about people not seeing things as they are. I got the decision that was right for me and I still oppose atos and the way the DWP operate so why am I when by your logic I should be quiet and happy .

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Marty so atos don't lie but you presumerably believe those who worked in the sector got disillusioned with how the system works came out and blew the whistle are lying ?. I'm not paranoid at all but I've seen the system first hand and I've worked as a volunteer helping people that opened my eyes a lot. For you to come on here endlessly defending a system that so many from those who worked in it to those who helped create the system and those who advised on it in the past have come out and said it doesn't work with one calling it cruel is a bit funny to me when you talk about people not seeing things as they are. I got the decision that was right for me and I still oppose atos and the way the DWP operate so why am I when by your logic I should be quiet and happy .

Way to totally miss the point . Weenie said ATOS are liars ,i disagreed ,let me clear i don't think they are liars that is not the same as saying they get it right all the time and what they do is always correct ,i am simply saying they don't lie to deliberately cause people problems as Weenie said

Originally Posted by martyh

I did not say that you think everybody is out to get you ,it is how it looks to me especially as you seem to expect people to lie as a matter of course .Also we aren't talking about people lieing we are talking about ATOS personnel lieing specifically ....note, Weenie said lieing not getting it wrong or advised incorrectly but lieing which implies that ATOS personnel are deliberately ruining peoples lives out of some sort of malicious intent ,i find that somewhat paranoid ,you and a few more of the usual suspects seem to agree that ATOS are lieing ,make of that what you will

ATOS do lie they have targets to meet how could they do their job properly? The DWP denied target but an expose found that that was a lie to. You are defending a lost cause marty but that is your choice

---------- Post added at 21:41 ---------- Previous post was at 21:40 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Way to totally miss the point . Weenie said ATOS are liars ,i disagreed ,let me clear i don't think they are liars that is not the same as saying they get it right all the time and what they do is always correct ,i am simply saying they don't lie to deliberately cause people problems as Weenie said

you are wrong

No I haven't missed the point at all the system is broken and atos do OK let's be nice not lie they misrepresent the truth on forms and in regard to the actual health of many they see. Now to answer your question of why would they do that as has been said before they do it to meet the targets set by the DWP which is not even much of a secret anymore and every time the DWP Denys it now they just look more stupid and more duplicitous. Think it's paranoia put in an foi request about the contract between atos and the DWP actually don't bother because even MP's cannot get an unedited version of it why the secrecy if everything is above board. I'm not asking you to take my word or opinion for anything it's all out there for you to read yourself and why people who helped create the system would now turn on that system if all was well I don't know. Disabled people are the political football between two political teams one wants everyone dependent on the state to some degree and the other despises the welfare system and hits too many genuine every time they are in unless it suits either of them to misuse it for their own agenda.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

No I haven't missed the point at all the system is broken and atos do OK let's be nice not lie they misrepresent the truth on forms and in regard to the actual health of many they see. Now to answer your question of why would they do that as has been said before they do it to meet the targets set by the DWP which is not even much of a secret anymore and every time the DWP Denys it now they just look more stupid and more duplicitous. Think it's paranoia put in an foi request about the contract between atos and the DWP actually don't bother because even MP's cannot get an unedited version of it why the secrecy if everything is above board. I'm not asking you to take my word or opinion for anything it's all out there for you to read yourself and why people who helped create the system would now turn on that system if all was well I don't know. Disabled people are the political football between two political teams one wants everyone dependent on the state to some degree and the other despises the welfare system and hits too many genuine every time they are in unless it suits either of them to misuse it for their own agenda.

And yet despite all this lying from the nasty baby eaters roughly 3.5 million manage to claim some form of disability payment

[weenie]

Originally Posted by martyh

[/B]No they don't

Just because some people don't get the decision they want doesn't make ATOS liars

Yes they are IMO and here is some interesting reading http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...it-work-report

[dilli-theclaw]

Originally Posted by martyh

And yet despite all this lying from the nasty baby eaters roughly 3.5 million manage to claim some form of disability payment

'Nasty bay eaters'? - and yet you claim my points are idiotic?

Originally Posted by weenie

Yes they are IMO and here is some interesting reading www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/09/atos-disabled-people-assessment-fit-work-report

An article suggesting reasons why the system gets it wrong sometimes is not proof that ATOS are liars .You need to get some perspective and look at how many are successful in their efforts to be supported by a very generous state.You (and a few others) may then start to realise how difficult a task it is to run that kind of system fairly and cost effectively

all the proof is in this program the same one I have linked to before it is all in there all the proof you need to see the whole system is built on BS https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xw...t-filming_news

[weenie]

Originally Posted by martyh

An article suggesting reasons why the system gets it wrong sometimes is not proof that ATOS are liars .You need to get some perspective and look at how many are successful in their efforts to be supported by a very generous state.You (and a few others) may then start to realise how difficult a task it is to run that kind of system fairly and cost effectively

Not being on benefits I would not know the true fairness of the system but going by what I read and have heard it does seem unfair to declare people for work who clearly cannot hold down a job due to being ill, but if I were ill or disabled and ATOS declared me fit when I clearly was not fit for work due to an illness or disability, then I would class them as liars. Like I say I know there are some people who claim that should not be on benefits, but to class all the same is wrong especially when medical evidence suggests otherwise just my opinion. I do realise it must be hard and really difficult task to run a system that is fair but when the evidence is clear that someone is ill, I am at a loss as why to declare them fit for work surely this costs more in the long run...

Originally Posted by weenie

it does seem unfair to declare people for work who clearly cannot hold down a job due to being ill, .

but how would you know ? just because someone is in a wheelchair or has cancer does not mean they cannot work ,you may think it is unfair but the reality is that many people with disabilities or serious illness do work and declaring someone fit for work when you think they are not does not make them a liar not by any definition

Originally Posted by martyh

but how would you know ? just because someone is in a wheelchair or has cancer does not mean they cannot work ,you may think it is unfair but the reality is that many people with disabilities or serious illness do work and declaring someone fit for work when you think they are not does not make them a liar not by any definition

But ATOS report people fit for work when they are not and later found not.

Watch the program marty it proves ATOS is built on lies but I doubt you will as it doe snot support your view

[weenie]

Originally Posted by martyh

but how would you know ? just because someone is in a wheelchair or has cancer does not mean they cannot work ,you may think it is unfair but the reality is that many people with disabilities or serious illness do work and declaring someone fit for work when you think they are not does not make them a liar not by any definition

TBH I don't as I have never experienced being on the sickness benefit, but a friend of mine was declared fit when she was anything but and it cost the government more in the long run as they were in hospital for many weeks as the stress made there illness worse due to the fact ATOS took them off sickness benefit, then when she appealed she was awarded and backdated payments. The illness she has, she cannot really cope with stress as it seems to make it worse. I am mainly going by her experience of ATOS. They made her out to the liar when it was them who lied as they did not state all she told them, sorry I believe my friend I have known for many years also I used to work with them and I know them as trustworthy...