Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Originally Posted by Mr K

If they keep voting overwhelmingly for a pro-independence party, she has a valid point.

That goes to the heart of the issue though doesn’t it - can you really co-opt any person’s vote at a general election for a single issue? Have you ever been 100% in favour of a party’s manifesto without reservation or is it more likely a decision based on the substance of what they’re offering underpinned by the basic principles of the party in question?

And even if the SNP reduces its manifesto to a one line ‘vote us = vote yes’, can they really claim in one vote to have unpicked the complex reasons why people vote as they do?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Chris

That goes to the heart of the issue though doesn’t it - can you really co-opt any person’s vote at a general election for a single issue? Have you ever been 100% in favour of a party’s manifesto without reservation or is it more likely a decision based on the substance of what they’re offering underpinned by the basic principles of the party in question?

And even if the SNP reduces its manifesto to a one line ‘vote us = vote yes’, can they really claim in one vote to have unpicked the complex reasons why people vote as they do?

So you're making the case for a separate referendum? 🤔

I get the 'once in a generation' thing, but it will have been nearly 10 years so it is a new generation. 10 years worth of new voters.

Personally I think it would be a disaster for all concerned, but up to them. The inevitable break up of the UK is one of the consequences of another referendum we had, maybe everyone wants to now 'take back control'. (a vote that we had a few times on the same issue so there is a precedent).

Denying people a vote on an issue, because you're scared of the result, won't end well and could well backfire when the next vote does happen.

Originally Posted by Mr K

So you're making the case for a separate referendum? ��

I get the 'once in a generation' thing, but it will have been nearly 10 years so it is a new generation. 10 years worth of new voters.

Personally I think it would be a disaster for all concerned, but up to them. The inevitable break up of the UK is one of the consequences of another referendum we had, maybe everyone wants to now 'take back control'. (a vote that we had a few times on the same issue so there is a precedent).

Denying people a vote on an issue, because you're scared of the result, won't end well and could well backfire when the next vote does happen.

I am making the case for a stand-alone referendum, yes, and within the parameters set out by Alex Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon in late 2013 and throughout 2014 - namely that such things are “once in a generation, if not once in a lifetime” events.

Denying a vote now isn’t fear of the outcome, it’s fear of the process, alongside an appeal to respect the parameters of the debate and the vote, all of which were set by the campaign for a yes/leave vote. The entire UK has now experienced the deeply unpleasant consequences of dividing the electorate on a constitutional issue that is substantially grounded in national identity. Scotland has been experiencing that on steroids since 2014 because there is no natural permanent lobby for status quo but there is one for change, namely the SNP, which obviously isn’t going to give up on its whole reason to exist.

Imagine a remain vote in 2016 and where the UK might now be with Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party or some variation on it. Had Brexit been settled by a narrow remain vote, how accommodating would you now be of his inevitable demands for a re-run?

Originally Posted by Mr K

If they keep voting overwhelmingly for a pro-independence party, she has a valid point.

It’s not true independence when she prattles on about rejoining the corrupted EU. Which they have zero chance, given Spain don’t want them in. Only takes one member to veto.

[nomadking]

Link

Majority support for independence is an essential requirement of Scotland, or any country, becoming independent."
Nicola SturgeonScotland's first minister
...
If we can't win, we don't deserve to be independent,' says Sturgeon

Well that's been asked and answered.

Originally Posted by Mr K

I get the 'once in a generation' thing, but it will have been nearly 10 years so it is a new generation. 10 years worth of new voters.

Nice try but utter nonsense, a generation is not 10 years, its generally considered to be about 25 years.
As I'm sure you know, when anyone is born, their next generation is when they themselves grow up and have children.

(It would also have been 9 years, since she proposed 2023).

[nomadking]

Not sure the SNP should compare voting for the Scottish Parliament with a referendum as around 1m more voted in the referendum, plus there wouldn't really be a "No" campaign.

[Ms NTL]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s not true independence when she prattles on about rejoining the corrupted EU. Which they have zero chance, given Spain don’t want them in. Only takes one member to veto.

Link about Spain? Is Gibraltar Scottish? Missed something?

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...-idUKKCN1NP25P
https://www.holyrood.com/news/view,s...g-eu_13350.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=Spai...hrome&ie=UTF-8

My question is this: I have a British passport. Can opt to be Scottish? So my family can re-join the EU?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

It’s not true independence when she prattles on about rejoining the corrupted EU. Which they have zero chance, given Spain don’t want them in. Only takes one member to veto.

I can't see Scotland leaving the UK in the next 10 years for many reasons - including today's announcement plus Scotland's share of the UK's £30 trillion debt would need to be agreed.

But it's incorrect to say that Spain would stand in Scotland's way of joining the EU. Not to say that they won't change their minds in the future though.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-membe...pain-scotland/
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/new...ining-eu-veto/
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...-idUKKCN1NP25P

---------- Post added at 23:24 ---------- Previous post was at 23:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Ms NTL

My question is this: I have a British passport. Can opt to be Scottish? So my family can re-join the EU?

Very hypothetical but if you weren't born in Scotland, you would be more likely to get a Scottish passport in the event of the country becoming independent by moving there beforehand. There would then be a number of years before/if it joined the EU.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I can't see Scotland leaving the UK in the next 10 years for many reasons - including today's announcement plus Scotland's share of the UK's £30 trillion debt would need to be agreed.

30 trillion, that's grown quick, the tories self proclaimed reputation for being good with money really is in tatters

If it were up to me I'd let them of their share of the debt if it meant they leave the union

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

30 trillion, that's grown quick, the tories self proclaimed reputation for being good with money really is in tatters

If it were up to me I'd let them of their share of the debt if it meant they leave the union

My bad, it's about £2.5bn.

Although Truss had an appalling mini budget, in general I think it's simplistic to blame political parties solely for increases in debt during their time when events like the Global Financial Crisis, wars and even recessions arise.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

My bad, it's about £2.5bn.

No it isn't, my best advice is quit whilst your behind

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

No it isn't, my best advice is quit whilst your behind

Good advice. Final guess £2.5 trillion.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Good advice. Final guess £2.5 trillion.

My final guess, you are Diane Abbott and I'm claiming five pounds...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

My final guess, you are Diane Abbott and I'm claiming five pounds...

Close - Pritti Patel
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/bre...commons-87118/