Schools and NHS could be held accountable over youth crime

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.

Glad to say all of the Victorian schools in my area have been repurposed .

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Seriously? More whataboutism? I'm incensed as a teacher that professional colleagues will be legally liable for missing some student involved in knife crime when they are already overworked and under resourced when their job is to EDUCATE not police their students.

Doctors are legally obliged to report bullet injuries to the police, aren't they? Doctors are also overworked and lack resources.

I was overworked and lacked resources in my last employment but I couldn't use that excuse not to obey whatever additional duties imposed on me.

Sorry, Maggy, it's not that I don't sympathise, but teachers are not the only employees who are overstretched. This is the case in many occupations, particularly in the public services.

I'm just glad I am now retired!

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Is this for real?!


I work in a school and my wife in the NHS and I can say the amount of education, safeguarding and help we give to young people goes above and beyond.


Yet another way to pass the blame whilst MP's relax in their villas abroad oblivious to the way the world really works.
It's time to completely scrap this whole government.

Labour would only add to the bureaucracy, so that isn't a solution.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a considerable effort by the Police to repair as much of the damage as possible and to minimize any further damage. Perhaps their needs to be consideration of resource deployment etc.

budget dependencies/prioritization of course.

The teacher/NHS part is nonsense.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:50 ----------


Got to disagree on this one, if this is still being done it's archaic.

The Police cannot be always at the right time and place. Ridiculous for people to keep going on about Police numbers without addressing the real problem.



Diane Abbott sent her son to public school to get away from the malign influence of her constituents.

I knew what could happen to my son if he was sent to the wrong school and got in with the wrong crowd. I realised they were subjected to peer *pressure and when that happens it’s very hard for a mother to save her son.

Trevor Phillips

This attack is the latest in a senseless war between gangs — almost all comprised of black or Asian youngsters.
...

My own affluent North London street is surrounded by estates populated in part by the ethnic groups whose names feature in virtually every report of the violence: Somalis, Ethiopians, North and Central Africans, Afghans.
...
Depressingly, I would hardly change a word of my advice to Gordon Brown when he reached out to me after a spate of killings 12 years back.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The Police cannot be always at the right time and place. Ridiculous for people to keep going on about Police numbers without addressing the real problem.



Diane Abbott sent her son to public school to get away from the malign influence of her constituents.
Trevor Phillips

Put the numbers of officers that have been lost in the past few years back into service and they can obviously be in more places than now. That’s a no brainier

Redeploy and prioritise better and you could stop even more

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Put the numbers of officers that have been lost in the past few years back into service and they can obviously be in more places than now. That’s a no brainier

Redeploy and prioritise better and you could stop even more

Let's suppose for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that they on ONE instance(and it's very unlikely to be more than that) they can be in the right place at the right time, any attack will simply take place at another place and time.


Hate to break it to you, but potential criminals are not sitting at home waiting for the latest figures on Police numbers before deciding whether to go out and commit crime.


Diane Abbott sent her son away in 2003, and Trevor Phillips said there was a big problem with knife crime 12 years ago.

Mr Phillips said that when refugees from Somalia and the Congo first arrived in the UK during the last Labour Government, he urged special measures to address the problem, such as therapy.
...
‘It was obvious that if we didn’t act we would pay a heavy price. Sadly, they were mainly just dumped in schools and we expected them to behave just like other children. Now we see the consequences.’

Link from 2017

What advantage does the next level bring? “Power, status, girls, especially girls.” Did Wayne, who is black British, think you have to be more aggressive today than in the past to earn your stripes? “In the last 10 years, since the Somalis and the Congolese came to London, they taught us a whole new level of violence,” he said.
...
It upped the speed and level of violence for us British-born guys. We had to arm up to protect ourselves. It created an upward spiral.”

They then go on to have lots of kids who in turn eventually add to the numbers.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Let's suppose for the sake of your ridiculous argument, that they on ONE instance(and it's very unlikely to be more than that) they can be in the right place at the right time, any attack will simply take place at another place and time.


Hate to break it to you, but potential criminals are not sitting at home waiting for the latest figures on Police numbers before deciding whether to go out and commit crime.


Diane Abbott sent her son away in 2003, and Trevor Phillips said there was a big problem with knife crime 12 years ago.
Link from 2017

They then go on to have lots of kids who in turn eventually add to the numbers.

Your hypothesis would be right apart from your basing it on the criminals constantly knowing the deployment status and location of officers. Which of course they don’t a great deal of the time.

If you don’t get that a higher amount of officers on the ground coupled with the increase in stop and search would lead to a reduction on current levels of offences then I don’t know what else to say to you

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Your hypothesis would be right apart from your basing it on the criminals constantly knowing the deployment status and location of officers. Which of course they don’t a great deal of the time.

If you don’t get that a higher amount of officers on the ground coupled with the increase in stop and search would lead to a reduction on current levels of offences then I don’t know what else to say to you

Not my hypothesis. Only logical conclusion from the nonsense about there being a direct link between Police numbers and crime.


They have to be allowed to "stop and search" in the first place. Who was responsible for the reduction in that? Still doesn't lock them up, never mind also throwing away the key.


They and their associates(whether active or passive, eg girlfriends) should be locked up. That should make being part of such a gang an unattractive option.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Doctors are legally obliged to report bullet injuries to the police, aren't they? Doctors are also overworked and lack resources.

I was overworked and lacked resources in my last employment but I couldn't use that excuse not to obey whatever additional duties imposed on me.

Sorry, Maggy, it's not that I don't sympathise, but teachers are not the only employees who are overstretched. This is the case in many occupations, particularly in the public services.

I'm just glad I am now retired!

---------- Post added at 19:13 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------



Labour would only add to the bureaucracy, so that isn't a solution.

Then expect to see fewer teachers. I certainly wouldn't have entered the profession if that had been the case.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Which is part of preparing students for real life in the workplace.

As would not stabbing their future colleagues be presumably. I think it's worth looking at and think the Saj deserves credit for thinking outside the box and bringing all agencies together to try and tackle it, who knows it might not work but let's not shoot or stab the messenger before it's even been looked at to see how feasible or practical it is to implement. Mrs May is correct to say we can't arrest our way out of this crisis but imo it'd be a start

[Halcyon]

Having had time to think about this I think there is some sense to it to some degree.
We (those that work in education) spend a lot of the day with children so there is more chance of us to witness something wrong in a child.
An example would be seeing bruises on a child when they are doing PE or a child that is talking about certain subjects which they shouldn't be exposed to at that age.
We can pick up on certain things. It is our duty to report any concerns to the designated safeguarding lead in the school.


However I dont think we have time to be checking all children for knives or checking their bags for drugs every day of the week.
Parents have a responsibility to police their children....otherwise known as giving them a good upbringing. They have to play a part in this. It cant be left to teachers.


The police are doing their bit but maybe they need to put more resources into it.
Im now in Primary but when I worked in Secondary we regularly had assemblies with police officers coming to talk about sexual consent and knife crime, arson, etc. So they are getting out there.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

As would not stabbing their future colleagues be presumably. I think it's worth looking at and think the Saj deserves credit for thinking outside the box and bringing all agencies together to try and tackle it, who knows it might not work but let's not shoot or stab the messenger before it's even been looked at to see how feasible or practical it is to implement. Mrs May is correct to say we can't arrest our way out of this crisis but imo it'd be a start

I don't think it's worth looking at. It's already hard enough recruiting teachers so placing this legal requirement on them won't help with that.

[nomadking]

Apparently:-

It would be very similar to the system in Glasgow, formerly the knife crime capital of
Europe, where stab wounds have halved in 12 years.
It also mirrors the anti-terrorism Prevent strategy, set up in 2006, which is used to
identify youngsters at risk of being sucked into extremism.
Under the Glasgow model, gang members and those at risk of joining gangs are referred
to violence reduction units. There, they are offered mentoring by someone with similar
experiences of violence or given opportunities to further their education.

Although the difference in demographics might make it less likely to work in London.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Having had time to think about this I think there is some sense to it to some degree.
We (those that work in education) spend a lot of the day with children so there is more chance of us to witness something wrong in a child.
An example would be seeing bruises on a child when they are doing PE or a child that is talking about certain subjects which they shouldn't be exposed to at that age.
We can pick up on certain things. It is our duty to report any concerns to the designated safeguarding lead in the school.


However I dont think we have time to be checking all children for knives or checking their bags for drugs every day of the week.
Parents have a responsibility to police their children....otherwise known as giving them a good upbringing. They have to play a part in this. It cant be left to teachers.


The police are doing their bit but maybe they need to put more resources into it.
Im now in Primary but when I worked in Secondary we regularly had assemblies with police officers coming to talk about sexual consent and knife crime, arson, etc. So they are getting out there.

I wonder if they will bring a law in making parents accountable over youth crime?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I wonder if they will bring a law in making parents accountable over youth crime?

The parents should definitely have been included in the saj's review somehow imo, ultimately the buck stops with them