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Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
View Poll Results: Will you be opting out of the Virgin Ad Deal?
Yes, Definitely. 958 95.51%
No, I am quite happy to share my surfing habits with anyone. 45 4.49%
Voters: 1003. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28-05-2008, 23:55   #7441
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
I don't think this is BT consulting with Phorm, from what I have read about the References header, it is the origin of the message they are replying to. If that message was a technical email from Phorm, then the reply would go to them, not you.

This seems like it is definitely referring to the origin of the contact us form data.

Alexander Hanff
No, one of its recommended uses is to maintain continuity of a thread (or other relationship) when it is not evident from the normal sent / received trail. Its purpose would be to allow BT to remember who had created the answer if I subsequently queried the reply they had sent me. They are probably using a CRM or Case Management package that flows the work using emails and is setting the references header field, either for its own tracking purposes or most likely for no particular reason. The fact that it is being set suggests to me that there is no other more sinister purpose. Or maybe I am just in a trusting mood today...

BTW I agree the message is probably being forwarded to phorm automatically by a bot with a script, as you wrote earlier.
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Old 28-05-2008, 23:58   #7442
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pencal View Post
Return-path: <bt.webwise.help.desk@bt.com>
Delivery-date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:52:34 +0100
Received: from [217.32.164.138] (helo=smtp3.smtp.bt.com)
by hermes.hosts.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.67)
(envelope-from <bt.webwise.help.desk@bt.com>)
id 1Jvs7W-0003JX-7L
for xxxx@xxxxx.co.uk; Tue, 13 May 2008 11:52:34 +0100
Received: from E03MVA2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net ([193.113.197.105]) by smtp3.smtp.bt.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830);
Tue, xx xx 2008 xx:52:39 +0100
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5
Content-class: urn:content-classes:message
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Subject: FW: BT.webwise.com Contact Request
Date: Tue, 13 May 2008 11:51:32 +0100
Message-ID: <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxx2-UKBR.domain1.systemhost.net>
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: BT.webwise.com Contact Request
Thread-Index: xxxxxxxxxdw65ScKRtvQRUfeUJwfLtdw0
References: <xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxx@www.121media.com>
From: <bt.webwise.help.desk@bt.com>
To: <xxx@xxxx.co.uk>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: xx xxx 2008 xx xx .0899 (UTC) FILETIME=[7685E2B0:01C8B4E7]
X-namesco: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx
X-Spam-Score: -0.9 (/)
X-Original-To: xxx@xxxxxx.co.uk
Complain to the ICO... BT need to explain why data submitted on that contact form (including names, emails, account numbers and other PII) is passing through Phorm's hands when they have categorically assured customers and the ICO that would not happen.

And explain why they are still referring customers to that site from BT.com.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:10   #7443
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by serial View Post
Was split on linking inphormationdesk.org or badphorm, I figured I wanted a place people could ask questions other than emailing me



I was scrolling past this and this entry caught my eye, we've had a user called AlanC start a thread on BadPhorm which has caused a long argument with him.



As has been said, trying to keep meta content the same as content on the page. I'm getting good advice on the SEO side
The 'title' metatag and the 'description' metatag are the important ones from Googles point of view. The content should have the important search keywords words (contained within the title tag and the description) fairly early on within the page. A good heading is useful. Your title should be something along the lines of <title> Phorm | Webwise spying opt-out opt-in" </title> and should preferably be the top meta tag of the bunch.

The meta tag 'keyword' from the Google search engines point of view is largely irrelevant and it tends to ignore it. Other search engines do use it though.

You need lots of good one way links to the site. 'dig it' etc with good anchor text. Note that sites linking to each other can cancel each others out. One way links are the secret to Google ranking success!

You should do a sitemap and submit it to Google also. Unless you get lots of visits from various sites and good page links to your site, you will end up in the Google 'sandbox' although I doubt this will happen for long, if at all, due to the current interest in Phorm/webwise.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:12   #7444
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 View Post
i noted the source of the page

<meta name="description" content="Does Webwise spy on you? BT and TalkTalk Carphone Warehouse customers are about to find out. Warning: Webwise infringes your privacy.">
<meta name="keywords" content="webwise phorm BT talktalk carphonewarehouse carphone warehouse phishing spying">

we need to add more in these two lines, you are allowed 256 chars in each, and google etc scan these i believe at a higher wieghting than page content

could add

illegal interception wiretap ripa DPA data protection act

to the keywords

and

illegal under ripa, data protection act and EU perc etc

to the description

that should help get it up the search engine ratings

peter

---------- Post added at 21:38 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

just had a virus warning when i posted the last reply !!!!

FILES\CONTENT.IE5\DMRBACPE\BOARD[1].HTM.

Infection: Constructor.DOS.BWG.203

any thoughts

peter
http://www.viruslist.com/en/viruses/...?virusid=54600

http://www.viruslist.com/en/viruses/...?virusid=54584
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:14   #7445
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluecar1 View Post
what about a link to http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/
it's got the full archive of register articles about phorm from chris williams
Trying to keep content and links to a minimum. If people want more then they can search. I do have a link to the Phorm wiki which has a lot more detail and reg links.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:15   #7446
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation View Post
Complain to the ICO... BT need to explain why data submitted on that contact form (including names, emails, account numbers and other PII) is passing through Phorm's hands when they have categorically assured customers and the ICO that would not happen.

And explain why they are still referring customers to that site from BT.com.
All you have is a helpdesk referring (probably automatically) a query about a product to the supplier of that product for a response and then passing that response back to you. Look at the headers - it is clear that this is what is happening. What is not clear is what is being done by phorm with any personal information they get in the email sent to them - and we dont know if there is any at all - but this is exactly the behaviour I would expect from any large company helpdesk. So as I said earlier, you can ask BT and/or phorm what personal data there is and what they do with it but don't expect an honest reply any time soon. Good luck with the ICO if you are so minded, my view is that you are tilting at windmills here.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:31   #7447
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
All you have is a helpdesk referring (probably automatically) a query about a product to the supplier of that product for a response and then passing that response back to you. Look at the headers - it is clear that this is what is happening. What is not clear is what is being done by phorm with any personal information they get in the email sent to them - and we dont know if there is any at all - but this is exactly the behaviour I would expect from any large company helpdesk. So as I said earlier, you can ask BT and/or phorm what personal data there is and what they do with it but don't expect an honest reply any time soon. Good luck with the ICO if you are so minded, my view is that you are tilting at windmills here.
Even though in reference to a query about that very contact form, during a discussion on the exact status and data security of that very site and contact form, on the forum, BT said that it was an internal BT page? "Before you start to send emails to the moderators and our abuse team about this, http://webwise.bt,com isn't a phishing site. It's merely a part of BT.com that is hosted on a different set of servers, much like bt.custhelp.com which is hosted on Right Now's servers in California. Right Now's servers also handle all of the traffic in the "Contact Us" section of BT.com just like the form on the Webwise site and with a similar level of security for handling details like your account numbers."

and even though the Webwise FAQ thread on those SAME forums say in answering question 10

"Is BT selling customer data? BT has not sold and will not sell your data. No browsing data leaves BT network and no personally-identifiable information is generated or stored by the BT Webwise service or Phorm, the company that provides the technology behind the service. We do not tie our authentication servers and systems into Phorm's systems and we do not send any other information we hold on our subscribers to Phorm."

When I add all that up, and the fact that it is all DIRECTLY with reference to the BT Webwise service and site, then I find it very difficult to accept that BT are sending my email details to Phorm when I use the BT Webwise site contact form.

I feel that they have given reassurances to me directly about my data which they have then failed to honour and which seem to me to be directly misleading.

I'll certainly let you know how I get on.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:31   #7448
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
All you have is a helpdesk referring (probably automatically) a query about a product to the supplier of that product for a response and then passing that response back to you. Look at the headers - it is clear that this is what is happening. What is not clear is what is being done by phorm with any personal information they get in the email sent to them - and we dont know if there is any at all - but this is exactly the behaviour I would expect from any large company helpdesk. So as I said earlier, you can ask BT and/or phorm what personal data there is and what they do with it but don't expect an honest reply any time soon. Good luck with the ICO if you are so minded, my view is that you are tilting at windmills here.
Could you perhaps explain then why an email about a BT domain needs consultation from Phorm in order to answer?

For your suggestion to be true that would seem to make no sense. There should be no reason for BT to consult Phorm on queries about BT's own servers.

Alexander Hanff
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:43   #7449
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
Could you perhaps explain then why an email about a BT domain needs consultation from Phorm in order to answer?

For your suggestion to be true that would seem to make no sense. There should be no reason for BT to consult Phorm on queries about BT's own servers.

Alexander Hanff
Because the helpdesk would normally be staffed with low skilled staff and an email auto-response system. And BT would probably be paying phorm a support fee to provide second line support. The default route may even be to phorm. Anything more BT-related would just be passed back to them. But it does look like a case-referral trail rather than the form being hosted by phorm(!) This is typical of how products like eg Kana or Siebel work. After a while the auto response system would be able to spout its own PR-spin canned answers but until they get a feel for the sort of questions people actually ask they will probably be hand holding it.
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Old 29-05-2008, 00:58   #7450
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
Because the helpdesk would normally be staffed with low skilled staff and an email auto-response system. And BT would probably be paying phorm a support fee to provide second line support. The default route may even be to phorm. Anything more BT-related would just be passed back to them. But it does look like a case-referral trail rather than the form being hosted by phorm(!) This is typical of how products like eg Kana or Siebel work. After a while the auto response system would be able to spout its own PR-spin canned answers but until they get a feel for the sort of questions people actually ask they will probably be hand holding it.
Last weekend there was a lot happening over on BT, including signs of a lot of activity and changes on webwise.bt.com - for example all the pages suddenly changed from html to php. Links from the www.bt.com search box results which pointed to the old pages were broken and it became actually quite hard to locate BT Webwise from any starting point on the BT information and help pages.

There was stuff going on all weekend - and discussion about it on forums by customers expressing their concerns. I think talk of an automated system just rolling along its merry way doesn't quite fit with what we saw from the BT Customer end of things over that weekend. They were up to their usual tricks - telling us one thing and actively secretly doing another. They are well practiced at it and one day I hope they will pay for it publicly.
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Old 29-05-2008, 01:10   #7451
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Yes it does seem that they were in preparation for the trials. But the webwise faqs, contact form etc are bog standard customer service stuff. You will probably find the same contact form embedded in loads of BT pages. the form is just a portal into the CS system which will probably verify that the customer details are known and then attempt to make an intelligent guess about where to send the query. It's very unlikely that anyone is going to tell you anything specific about their configuration in response to a CS query. Much more likely to get a standard 'very sorry should be better soon' or 'don't worry your pretty little head about it'. For UK Government sites this (the network topology) would be restricted information in any case, many big companies take the same approach.

There you go - they are a Siebel user http://www.oracle.com/customers/snap...g-snapshot.pdf
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Old 29-05-2008, 02:17   #7452
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Looking closely at the contact form on www.webwise.bt.com... the form action posts to a local resource;

<form name="contactform" action="contact_process.php" method="post">

That would mean the entire contents of the form submission are posted to the USA first. So the data *is* being processed initially in the USA (whatever the email fields, whatever the reference header, whatever the CRM system, whatever the explanation given by BT).

The form is initially processed in the USA.

Given that server is owned by Phorm, and the content of the replies received appear to be written by Phorm (see earlier posts), I think it is reasonable to conclude (in the absence of a convincing explanation by BT) the email is processed by Phorm. It is for BT to explain the rest, not us.

PS agree comment about ICO... sadly they are the only option.

---------- Post added at 00:44 ---------- Previous post was at 00:29 ----------

Just installed the excellent (and recommended by me) anti tracking DNS host file from http://someonewhocares.org/hosts/

... and found I couldn't connect to www.webwise.com

In the hosts file I found...
# sites with known trojans or other malware
127.0.0.1 59-106-20-39.r-bl100.sakura.ne.jp
127.0.0.1 Iframecash.biz
127.0.0.1 a.oix.com
127.0.0.1 a.oix.net
127.0.0.1 a.webwise.com
127.0.0.1 a.webwise.net
127.0.0.1 a.webwise.org


Superb

---------- Post added at 00:50 ---------- Previous post was at 00:44 ----------

More reasons to suppose Phorm are handling the queries from the www.webwise.bt.com site;

Compare
http://www.webwise.com/contact.html
If you have service or support questions for your ISP, please visit your ISP's website directly for fastest service.

<form name="contactform" action="contact_process.php" method="post">
with
http://www.webwise.bt.com/webwise/contact.php
If you have service or support questions for your ISP, please visit your ISP's website directly for fastest service

<form name="contactform" action="contact_process.php" method="post">
Snap!

---------- Post added at 01:17 ---------- Previous post was at 00:50 ----------

Another 'BT' site, with same content, same processing method, IP block owned by Phorm (Phorm IPv4 Assignment). How many is that now? 3? 4? Perhaps more given the number of IP addresses in the DNS replies. www.webwise.bt.com/webwise.bt.com/bt.webwise.com. Some in the USA, some in a Phorm IP address block, some on a third party hosting, and none apparently inside BT.
http://bt.webwise.com/webwise/contact.php
If you have service or support questions for your ISP, please visit your ISP's website directly for fastest service.

<form name="contactform" action="contact_process.php" method="post">
Compare
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_rep...ww.webwise.com
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_rep...bt.webwise.com
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Old 29-05-2008, 02:17   #7453
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicz View Post
Yes it does seem that they were in preparation for the trials. But the webwise faqs, contact form etc are bog standard customer service stuff. You will probably find the same contact form embedded in loads of BT pages. the form is just a portal into the CS system which will probably verify that the customer details are known and then attempt to make an intelligent guess about where to send the query. It's very unlikely that anyone is going to tell you anything specific about their configuration in response to a CS query. Much more likely to get a standard 'very sorry should be better soon' or 'don't worry your pretty little head about it'. For UK Government sites this (the network topology) would be restricted information in any case, many big companies take the same approach.

There you go - they are a Siebel user http://www.oracle.com/customers/snap...g-snapshot.pdf
I really am no expert on this stuff but I can't see how this fits with what's in the privacy policy from www.bt.com:

Quote:
Do we share your personal information with anyone else?

As a normal part of our business we share with other communications companies information for connecting and charging for calls over each others networks.

We sometimes use other companies to provide services to you or to provide services to us. To enable them to do this, we may need to share your personal information with them. When we do so, these companies are required to act in accordance with the instructions we give them and they must meet the requirements of the Data Protection Act to keep the information secure.

We may share your personal information with other parts of BT to enable them to conduct their own businesses and to market their products and services to you. We provide this information in accordance with our code of practice on the disclosure of customer information. This code limits BT´s ability to share information in this manner and is intended to prevent BT gaining unfair competitive advantage over its competitors.

We may share your personal information with other companies so that they can contact you with details of other products or services you may be interested in. We will only do this if you have agreed to this and where the companies agree to use your personal information for that purpose only. If you have agreed to receive information about products and services from another company and later decide not to you will need to contact that company yourself to let them know. You can of course ask us not to continue to provide your personal information to any more companies in future.

We may provide information, in response to properly made requests, for the purposes of the prevention and detection of crime, and the apprehension or prosecution of offenders. We may also provide information for the purpose of safeguarding national security. In either case we do so in accordance with the Data Protection Act. We also provide information when required to do so by law, for example under a court order, or in response to properly made demands, under powers contained in legislation.

If there is a change (or prospective change) in the ownership of BT or any of its assets, we may disclose personal information to the new (or prospective) owner. If we do so, we will require them to keep it confidential.

If you believe the personal information we hold on your is incorrect you may amend it by following the procedure set out below in "How can I change the personal information BT holds about me?"
My italics and underling, obviously...

So if anyone who has done a section 12(?) DPA notice makes a request to BT this way then BT phail?

I realise I've just pirated a significant amount of text from a (presumably) (c) BT page. Oh, whatever. Go ahead and sue BT... my first defence witnesses will be, er, BT and that Kent bloke since they've convinced me that anything "on that t'tinterweb thingy" = public domain

Dave
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Old 29-05-2008, 08:01   #7454
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff View Post
We have no idea what is being logged, whether this information is being retained by Phorm or why it is even being sent to Phorm in the first place.
...
It is simply unacceptable.

Alexander Hanff
Indeed - "We have no idea" because the form calls a routine on the (Phorm owned) server to create the email. In my world of work we do this all the time on web pages, but I think we have no way of knowing what the routine on the Phorm owned server actually does. It could be storing copies of the "Sent" emails or it may be writing the field inputs to a database or it may not. Either way, their probably IS a copy in some form, somewhere, owned by Phorm or accessible to them.

Hank

---------- Post added at 06:58 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by R Jones View Post
BT have also kept insisting all over the place that they do not send identifiable personal data to Phorm.
Yeah, but they might not send it it might just be collected because users are filling in the form and clicking the button. Effectively their customer/user is sending it using the "Phorm owned form". What appears to be so wrong (to me anyway) is that the form has BT all over it and not "Phorm" - deceptive little ***** - just what we have come to expect of them!

Hank

---------- Post added at 07:01 ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mark777 View Post
So even 'between' trials, Phorm is intercepting BT user data without their knowledge and passing it through their servers?
Might be stretching the facts to say Phorm are intercepting it. The user is making the input and clicking the send button and it is not being intercepted per se. No, the simple fact seems to be that the page itself and routine behind it on the server "IS PHORM". So, you are right in the sentiments - it's wrong and BT won't like being caught on this further deception...

It just all stinks, like a great big pile of stinking stuff.

Hank
 
Old 29-05-2008, 08:22   #7455
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank View Post

---------- Post added at 06:58 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------



Yeah, but they might not send it it might just be collected because users are filling in the form and clicking the button. Effectively their customer/user is sending it using the "Phorm owned form". What appears to be so wrong (to me anyway) is that the form has BT all over it and not "Phorm" - deceptive little ***** - just what we have come to expect of them!

Hank
And when asked, prior to me using the form and suspecting it was a Phorm phishing form, BT specifically claimed it as one of their own.
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