27-12-2021, 20:57
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#3556
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,096
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
It depends on what is meant by "sunlit uplands". Certainly there has to be a period of adjustment so that opportunities can be forged and subsequently exploited.
But to call Brexit "a grubby little project" misses the point of Brexit. The EU is inching forward, slowly but surely, into a federal state. Currently it is an association of independent states, but the directives and regulatory system is gradually strangling national independence - and this is now dawning on the various countries.
People absolutely did not buy and Brexit hyperbole; the 52% just wanted to get away from the tightening stranglehold.
Your misunderstanding of the public rational for Brexit is probably deliberate.
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Good post, well said... 
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27-12-2021, 22:04
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#3557
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
'sunlit uplands' . . where was that phrase first used, and was it by the remain or leave camp?
I suspect it was the remain camp, referring to some kind of Utopian dream that quite obviously wouldn't happen, in order to be then thrown into future arguments that Brexit didn't/isn't working 
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27-12-2021, 22:32
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#3558
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Virgin Media Staff
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Manchester
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
I suspect it was the remain camp
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Nope. It was Brexit supporting Andrea Leadsom in 2016 after the referendum.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...dership-speech
Quote:
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'I want to guide Britain to the sunlit uplands’ - full text of Andrea Leadsom’s leadership speech
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Last edited by BenMcr; 27-12-2021 at 22:36.
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27-12-2021, 22:40
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#3559
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr
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I'll take your word for it, typical Andrea Leadsom, ideas above station I guess 
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27-12-2021, 23:21
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#3560
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laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,099
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
I'll take your word for it, typical Andrea Leadsom, ideas above station I guess |
tbf, she wasn’t the only Leadership contender who was "economical with the actualite"…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rules-VAT.html
Quote:
Britain's energy bills will be slashed by £2 billion a year if voters back Brexit because it would allow ministers to scrap the 'unfair' VAT tax on gas and electricity, Leave campaigners claimed today.
EU rules on VAT introduced in 1993 ban individual member states from cutting VAT below 5 per cent.
Leading Brexit campaigners Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Labour MP Gisela Stuart have today claimed Brexit would benefit the poorest families because they pay three times more of their income on household energy bills than the richest households.
They say the £2 billion tax cut in energy bills could be funded with some of the £8.5 billion a year saved from Britain's contributions to the EU.
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27-12-2021, 23:44
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#3561
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
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Not sure what’s economical about any of that? As has been common throughout this discussion there’s a (possibly quite wilful) refusal to acknowledge the difference between a referendum campaign in which both sides present what they see as the risks and opportunities inherent in voting for or against their proposition, and an election in which politicians are elected on manifesto commitments to enact specific policies.
The Leave campaign observed that Brexit would enable greater freedom in VAT policy. That is a correct statement. It is a further benefit of Brexit that come the next election, if the sitting government has not used that freedom, it can reasonably be held accountable for it at the ballot box.
Boris et al have now have the power to lessen the impact of fuel bills by acting on VAT. Come the next election if they have not done so and you think they should have, you know what to do. 
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28-12-2021, 08:50
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#3562
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Britain outside the EU
There’s a huge difference between "could be" and (as was stated in "Britain's energy bills will be slashed by £2 billion a year") "will be" - the first is a possibility, the second is a promise (as stated in the Sun).
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/121870...s-back-brexit/
Quote:
Boris promises cheaper household gas bills if Brits back Brexit
EXCLUSIVE: The Former Mayor of London claims leaving the EU will mean ministers can slash the price of our gas bills
BORIS Johnson and Michael Gove today promise to scrap VAT on household energy bills if Britain backs a Brexit.
In the first cash sweetener of the EU Referendum campaign, they argue that leaving the EU will allow ministers to bin the "unfair and damaging" £2 billion a year tax on gas and electricity prices.
Writing exclusively for the Sun, the Tory "Out" campaigners promise: "Fuel bills will be lower for everyone."
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"Will be", not "can be"…
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Last edited by Hugh; 28-12-2021 at 08:54.
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28-12-2021, 09:02
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#3563
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Rise above the players
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
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On either side, I would add. Just for completeness, of course.
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28-12-2021, 09:33
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#3564
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,231
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
On either side, I would add. Just for completeness, of course.
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Link?
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28-12-2021, 09:36
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#3565
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
There’s a huge difference between "could be" and (as was stated in "Britain's energy bills will be slashed by £2 billion a year") "will be" - the first is a possibility, the second is a promise (as stated in the Sun).
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/121870...s-back-brexit/
"Will be", not "can be"… |
The Sun … seriously?
You’re still missing the point though. Referendums are not elections. They are not fought on manifestos. They are fought on arguments about possibilities. I prefer to assume the British electorate is intelligent enough to understand this difference.
The argument that ministers *can* scrap VAT on fuel is not a lie. It’s absolutely correct. They can do that. Anyone who thought that was a good reason to vote Leave was not deceived.
*If* Boris and Gove made firm commitments to use those powers during the referendum campaign then, for starters, nobody can complain that they were not used between 2016 and 2020 as they weren’t in positions where they could make good on such a commitment. Boris has, however, now been both PM, and working with a manifesto he had influence over, since 2020 (plus a couple of weeks of 2019). If we get to the next election and they haven’t made good on their commitments then those are factors that voters may take into account.
There are in fact a whole lot of policy areas where minsters can no longer just blame Brussels. The next general election has the potential to be the most broad ranging debate on the running of Britain in a generation. That is a good thing.
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28-12-2021, 11:48
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#3566
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
When all this stuff was spouted about energy bills, Covid hadn't arrived and the gas shortages weren't in the frame.
HS2 was a very large project too, but circumstances after it's conception have drastically altered its current direction (no pun intended)
There was also that chap that said "Peace for our time" wasn't there?
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28-12-2021, 12:30
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#3567
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cf.mega pornstar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,802
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Apparently there's going to be an inquiry into our trade deal with Australia now, things like hormone fed beef and general animal welfare being the chief concerns, weren't we promised our standards wouldn't drop and if anything would be higher
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28-12-2021, 12:58
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#3568
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Mum 15/08/46 - 30/09/20
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Location: Galactic Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, www.daves-world.co.uk. A secret Moonbase (shh don't tell anybody)
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Re: Britain outside the EU
If I had to vote for Brexit again tomorrow, I still would vote leave, as would many remainers.
What hasn't helps is Covid as this destroyed many best laid plans.
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28-12-2021, 13:03
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#3569
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cf.mega pornstar
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,802
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r
What hasn't helps is Covid as this destroyed many best laid plans.
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Or covid has helped avoid proper scrutiny of what's been happening, got a feeling some people are going to be held accountable for the things they've said in the coming year
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28-12-2021, 13:38
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#3570
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,427
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
It depends on what is meant by "sunlit uplands". Certainly there has to be a period of adjustment so that opportunities can be forged and subsequently exploited.
But to call Brexit "a grubby little project" misses the point of Brexit. The EU is inching forward, slowly but surely, into a federal state. Currently it is an association of independent states, but the directives and regulatory system is gradually strangling national independence - and this is now dawning on the various countries.
People absolutely did not buy and Brexit hyperbole; the 52% just wanted to get away from the tightening stranglehold.
Your misunderstanding of the public rational for Brexit is probably deliberate.
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You assume that everyone who voted did so based on politically ideology when the opposite is true. Most were promised a better future with no downside when all they have is a broken country run by crooks.
As time goes on and the fog of Covid clears, it will be these people, the ones who realise that they have been conned, that will be the ones that really suffer. The economic downside will manifest in reduced public services, lower quality food & environment standards, the list goes on.
The structural damage to the country in terms of societal divisions, generational betrayal, international reputation, empowering of latent racist & xenophobic views, etc. is significant and lasting.
A truely Pyrrhic victory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY
There are no ‘facts’ to support your view that Brexit will not reverse our fortunes. The future hasn’t happened yet, and you don’t appear to understand the word ‘opportunity’.
Will you still be screaming about GDP from the rooftops when that changes into a positive figure?
Yeah, sure you will…  |
Yet again, you ignore the reality of what is happening now and focus on the illusory sunlit uploads. If all you can point to (yet again) is "opportunity", then you really did take the blue pill.
---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
a referendum campaign in which both sides present what they see as the risks and opportunities inherent in voting for or against their proposition
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I do not remember the Leave campaign clearly & publicly presenting the inherent risks on leaving the EU
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