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Old 09-12-2018, 14:39   #4546
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
The knives are getting readied for Theresa May if as very likely she is going to lose the vote heavily on Tuesday.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...te-brexit-deal
Brexit should always have been put in control of a Brexiteer not someone who has clearly sabotaged it by allowing Remainers in government and the civil service to dictate a deal that is an utter farce.
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Old 09-12-2018, 14:43   #4547
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Brexit should always have been put in control of a Brexiteer not someone who has clearly sabotaged it by allowing Remainers in government and the civil service to dictate a deal that is an utter farce.
Were Davis and Raab not Brexit enough? At the same time as promoting Brexit supporting MPs to the foreign secretary and international trade positions?

They've had plenty of opportunity to feed into the process and failed at every turn. It's time for Brexit to be handed over to the adults, who can attempt to euthanise it for everyone's good.
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Old 09-12-2018, 14:44   #4548
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Why do we need to give it back to the people - is that to...
  • 1) Ignore the democratic decision taken in 2016, because YOU did not like the result?
  • 2) Over turn the first vote because it was a decision made that YOU do not like?
  • 3) Because you want to cause further uncertainty in your selfish determination to ignore democracy and over turn the democratic result taken in 2016?
  • 4) Because you are selfish ?
  • 5) You love abusing democracy ?
  • 6) You want to destroy faith people have in democracy by ignoring a democratic decision taken in 2016.
  • 7) You want to disrespect all the dead people who died to give us the freedoms of a true democratic nation ?
  • 8) ALL THE ABOVE.
ALL OF THE ABOVE means accepting, as a given, your definition of "democracy".

I personally believe democracy is based in relevant information about the subject being discussed, and if we learn more about the subject, we should be allowed to change our mind.

Saying "you’re only allowed one vote, and you’re stuck with it" is like a teenage child asking if they can bring a few friends over, you agree, and on the night they have 50 drunken mates turn up, you gave every right to say "no, this is not what I agreed to".

I had friends who were injured in NI, and I think anything that leads to the GFA being a negated is an insult to their sacrifice, but I don’t call anyone who thinks differently ‘selfish’ or ‘a traitor".

Democracy is about being tolerant of differing views, not denigrating those who disagree with your views.
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Last edited by Hugh; 09-12-2018 at 14:47.
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Old 09-12-2018, 14:51   #4549
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick View Post
Brexit should always have been put in control of a Brexiteer not someone who has clearly sabotaged it by allowing Remainers in government and the civil service to dictate a deal that is an utter farce.
But when Davis Cameron resigned after the referendum result the Conservatives had every chance to elect someone more far more Brexit leaning in their approach as they knew what they electing when they made Theresa May their new leader.
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Old 09-12-2018, 15:05   #4550
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by denphone View Post
But when Davis Cameron resigned after the referendum result the Conservatives had every chance to elect someone more far more Brexit leaning in their approach as they knew what they electing when they made Theresa May their new leader.
That's too easy to say! We all know that the chance was wasted because Gove stiffed Johnson, retribution forced Gove out, leaving Leadsom alone in the fray with May. Leadsom withdrew, being a lightweight and thus the Conservative membership did not get the chance to vote. You could say that the membership was stiffed too.

Now the nation is being stiffed.

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Old 09-12-2018, 15:16   #4551
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
That's too easy to say! We all know that the chance was wasted because Gove stiffed Johnson, retribution forced Gove out, leaving Leadsom alone in the fray with May. Leadsom withdrew, being a lightweight and thus the Conservative membership did not get the chance to vote. You could say that the membership was stiffed too.

Now the nation is being stiffed.

No not really as they all knew what the referendum result was in the incumbent government of the day and they all quite clearly had a chance to elect a leader in the leadership contest more in tune in what was voted for in the referendum but the Conservative party as has been the case for many a year now with regards to to the issue of Europe is in a permanent civil war with itself on the issue.

---------- Post added at 14:16 ---------- Previous post was at 14:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
the Conservative membership did not get the chance to vote. You could say that the membership was stiffed too.

Now the nation is being stiffed.

Democracy as it seems does not stretch to its membership.
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Old 09-12-2018, 15:55   #4552
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Hugh View Post
ALL OF THE ABOVE means accepting, as a given, your definition of "democracy".

I personally believe democracy is based in relevant information about the subject being discussed, and if we learn more about the subject, we should be allowed to change our mind.

Saying "you’re only allowed one vote, and you’re stuck with it" is like a teenage child asking if they can bring a few friends over, you agree, and on the night they have 50 drunken mates turn up, you gave every right to say "no, this is not what I agreed to".

I had friends who were injured in NI, and I think anything that leads to the GFA being a negated is an insult to their sacrifice, but I don’t call anyone who thinks differently ‘selfish’ or ‘a traitor".

Democracy is about being tolerant of differing views, not denigrating those who disagree with your views.
I couldn’t give a shit who disagrees with my views. I do give a shit when ignorant people try to overturn a Democratic decision.

Btw your piss poor analogy about drunken mates and unwanted invitations is a lot different than an entire country voting to leave a corrupted union and they certainly knew what they were voting for !!!
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Old 09-12-2018, 16:19   #4553
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by Mick View Post
I couldn’t give a shit who disagrees with my views. I do give a shit when ignorant people try to overturn a Democratic decision.

Btw your piss poor analogy about drunken mates and unwanted invitations is a lot different than an entire country voting to leave a corrupted union and they certainly knew what they were voting for !!!
I find it truly astonishing that 17 million people knew exactly what they were voting for but haven’t found a way to communicate it to our Brexit supporting politicians who can’t decide between the May deal, Norway(+), Canada(++), no deal or further negotiations.
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Old 09-12-2018, 16:42   #4554
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I find it truly astonishing that 17 million people knew exactly what they were voting for but haven’t found a way to communicate it to our Brexit supporting politicians who can’t decide between the May deal, Norway(+), Canada(++), no deal or further negotiations.
That's a useless piece of sarcasm. How can 17m people communicate with the stupid, deceitful politicians in a meaningful way? Perhaps audience applause in Question Time? And that's often 50/50. Yellow Vest riots? Try saying something useful.

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Old 09-12-2018, 16:48   #4555
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth View Post
That's a useless piece of sarcasm. How can 17m people communicate with the stupid, deceitful politicians in a meaningful way? Perhaps audience applause in Question Time? And that's often 50/50. Yellow Vest riots? Try saying something useful.

I’m not obliged to fix the problems of Brexit (indeed, when I have made any suggestions I get accused of trying to thwart it because I don’t subscribe to the “leave as soon as possible regardless of consequences” brand of Brexit).

If there was a single coherent view of what Brexit should look like we wouldn’t be in this mess.
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Old 09-12-2018, 17:02   #4556
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I’m not obliged to fix the problems of Brexit (indeed, when I have made any suggestions I get accused of trying to thwart it because I don’t subscribe to the “leave as soon as possible regardless of consequences” brand of Brexit).

If there was a single coherent view of what Brexit should look like we wouldn’t be in this mess.
What you don't want to get to grips with is that by Referendum, we voted to Leave the EU. It was always going to be messy because the guvmin did not take my advice from day 1 (!!) to go in hardball on the assumption that we would leave no deal (fully prepared) and that if the EU had any proposals, we'd consider them.
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Old 09-12-2018, 17:11   #4557
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Re: Brexit

I’ve very much got to grips with the referendum result.

However I’ve also got an awareness that this is a remain Parliament and our constitution is framed in a way that people are subordinate to Parliament. The system is pretty much designed to encourage creation of an impasse allowing Parliament to claim control of the process.

It’s a truly fascinating watch. They’ll make an excellent spy thriller about it one day how the result was seized back after the dark money/Russian interference/etc.
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Old 09-12-2018, 17:14   #4558
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Re: Brexit

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
I’m not obliged to fix the problems of Brexit (indeed, when I have made any suggestions I get accused of trying to thwart it because I don’t subscribe to the “leave as soon as possible regardless of consequences” brand of Brexit).

If there was a single coherent view of what Brexit should look like we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Absolute bollocks.

Btw noone asked you to do a thing.

Brexit means and looks like leaving the EU in it's entirety which I have ALWAYS said from day one - it's not hard FFS.
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Old 09-12-2018, 17:19   #4559
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Re: Brexit

You should write to all 650 odd MPs with that insight. This could all be sorted by tea time on Wednesday, as they’ve clearly misunderstood this situation massively.
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Old 09-12-2018, 17:22   #4560
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Re: Brexit

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
They’ll make an excellent spy thriller about it one day how the result was seized back after the dark money/Russian interference/etc.
. . or alternatively, how the great British public were sold out for 30 pieces of silver
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