Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The Green Party in Scotland is nothing like those two other organisations you cite. You're being blinded by your prejudices on this one I'm afraid.

The curated Wikipedia page describes it as "Centre-left to left-wing".

No, I’m not. You said that the important issue was to get an alliance to form a government, and other issues were not relevant.

I am saying that they are very relevant, hence my example.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

No, I’m not. You said that the important issue was to get an alliance to form a government, and other issues were not relevant.

I am saying that they are very relevant, hence my example.

Those weren't examples Old Boy, they were extreme organisations. The Green Party in Scotland is described as centre-left to left-wing. So the differences between it and the SNP are somewhat less.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Not really, Andrew. You wouldn’t expect the Labour Party to go into coalition with the Communists or the Conservatives to pair up with the Fascists.

It is extremely important to carefully consider the partners you go into coalition with to maintain credibility and the support of the people who elected you.

OB has it exactly right.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...ament_election

The Greens took NO constituency seats and obtained 8 Regional seats.

The SNP got 47.7% of the Constituency vote.
The Greens got 1.3% of the Constituency vote.

So, although there is a government supportive of independence, giving up the comforts that the Greens want to take away may well become a bigger issue than independence.

Sturgeon will want to put that difficult stuff into the background and the Greens will want that to be front & centre. Interesting times to come.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

OB has it exactly right.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Result...ament_election

The Greens took NO constituency seats and obtained 8 Regional seats.

The SNP got 47.7% of the Constituency vote.
The Greens got 1.3% of the Constituency vote.

So, although there is a government supportive of independence, giving up the comforts that the Greens want to take away may well become a bigger issue than independence.

Sturgeon will want to put that difficult stuff into the background and the Greens will want that to be front & centre. Interesting times to come.

You need to be careful how you interpret votes in the Scottish parliament system. We have lived with it here for 20 odd years now and are (reasonably) familiar with it, unlike those in England.

For starters, the smaller parties often don’t stand any candidates in the constituencies. It is a waste of time because the constituency vote is FPTP so they know they can’t win. The regional list vote allocates seats proportionally, after allowing for any seats already won within each region’s constituencies. Most Green voters vote for a major party that best reflects their views in the constituency, and then they vote Green on the regional list - if they vote on the constituency ballot at all. The numbers don’t actually tally up so there are definitely people who only vote on one of the papers.

So if you want an accurate idea of how popular (or otherwise) the Greens are in Scotland, you need to look to the regional list vote, where they scored 8.1%. That may not sound a lot, but it put them in 4th place ahead of the Lib Dems and a country mile ahead of Alex Salmond’s Alba Party, which fought an explicitly list-vote-only campaign.

That said, I agree, pitting the Greens front and centre in Scottish politics might actually backfire. They have been careful in the past to keep the focus on Patrick Harvie because unlike most of them he doesn’t sound like a complete froot loop on TV. If they’re going to be sitting in the cabinet however, we are eventually going to end up with some of the other ones on the six o’clock news. As you say, interesting times are ahead.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Those weren't examples Old Boy, they were extreme organisations. The Green Party in Scotland is described as centre-left to left-wing. So the differences between it and the SNP are somewhat less.

I was not suggesting that the Greens were an extreme organisation, Andrew. I was suggesting that which parties were brought into a coalition mattered. You know exactly what I meant, but it doesn’t suit your argument to admit it.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I was not suggesting that the Greens were an extreme organisation, Andrew. I was suggesting that which parties were brought into a coalition mattered. You know exactly what I meant, but it doesn’t suit your argument to admit it.

I can't mindread you and you shouldn't attempt to do the same with anyone else. By citing two extreme organisations you certainly gave the impression to me that the SNP were doing something similar.

[Carth]

All I know about 'greens' is that you're supposed to eat 5 a day*, maybe it's different in Scotland


*it's a prerogative, or charter, or something . . .

Originally Posted by Carth

All I know about 'greens' is that you're supposed to eat 5 a day*, maybe it's different in Scotland


*it's a prerogative, or charter, or something . . .

Fruit and veg is illegal in most of Scotland, and frowned on everywhere.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Fruit and veg is illegal in most of Scotland, and frowned on everywhere.

unless it's battered and fried in lard.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

unless it's battered and fried in lard.

Beef dripping - much healthier…

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I can't mindread you and you shouldn't attempt to do the same with anyone else. By citing two extreme organisations you certainly gave the impression to me that the SNP were doing something similar.

You said that which parties the SNP went into coalition did not matter, basically. My example simply demonstrated that it did.

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You said that which parties the SNP went into coalition did not matter, basically. My example simply demonstrated that it did.

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand?

The issue seems to be that you've interpreted my post differently to they way it was intended. I am sorry for any lack of clarity on my part.

What I said was:

I think the alliance with the Greens achieves what it set out to do - create a pro-independence Scottish government. Attempting to judge the alliance on other criteria misses the point.

What I mean by that is that the critical issue is that there is a pro-independence government in place in Scotland for the next four years. What does this mean? It significantly increases the chances of an independence election being called.

Apart from Alex Salmond's new party, the other parties are against independence. Sure, the two parties in government won't see eye to eye 100% on everything but both are centre-left which is far closer than the two parties you used as examples. And sure, there are many reasons why someone voted SNP instead of the Green Party but the key aspect remains - for the first time there is now a pro-independence government in charge of a devolved Scottish Parliament.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The issue seems to be that you've interpreted my post differently to they way it was intended. I am sorry for any lack of clarity on my part.

What I said was:

What I mean by that is that the critical issue is that there is a pro-independence government in place in Scotland for the next four years. What does this mean? It significantly increases the chances of an independence election being called.

Apart from Alex Salmond's new party, the other parties are against independence. Sure, the two parties in government won't see eye to eye 100% on everything but both are centre-left which is far closer than the two parties you used as examples. And sure, there are many reasons why someone voted SNP instead of the Green Party but the key aspect remains - for the first time there is now a pro-independence government in charge of a devolved Scottish Parliament.

I’m assuming you mean ‘a pro-independence government with a majority in the Scottish parliament’, because Scotland has had a pro-independence government since 2007. In fact this isn’t the first time Scotland has had a pro-independence government with a majority in the Scottish parliament either - it was also the case from 2011 to 2015, which is how we ended up with the referendum in 2014. With Green support, there has been a pro-independence majority in the parliament continuously since 2011.

I think you’re right, she’s after the combination of government and parliament united behind independence, but the reason she’s doing it is not because it’s a first, it’s because it’s been the case for 10 years one way or another, yet she still can’t get and win a referendum. This is just another way of rearranging the deckchairs to try to make her demands for the legal powers to hold another referendum more persuasive.

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:46 ----------

Incidentally, if you want to read a vehemently pro-independence blogger who exerted genuine influence in the 2014 campaign, explaining why he thinks there is absolutely zero chance of there being a referendum any time in the next 5 years, I heartily commend this article:

https://wingsoverscotland.com/the-sh...g/#more-130108

The only time in history the independence movement has ever held any meaningful leverage over a UK government (Theresa May’s lame-duck minority administration of 2017-19) Nicola Sturgeon squandered it on a futile and immoral attempt to deny England and Wales the Brexit that they voted for of their own free democratic will, and then helpfully handed Johnson the election that gave him the 80-seat majority which now renders him totally invulnerable on the constitution.

So what’s coming now is five miserable years of deja vu. A Holyrood with a pro-indy majority but no will to do anything with it, just like the one we’ve had since 2016 when Sturgeon lost Salmond’s majority and became beholden to the foul, racist, misogynist paedophilia sympathisers and enablers of the Scottish Greens – a situation that it’s now possible with hindsight to see absolutely delights her.

And that’s quite possibly the only time I will ever willingly share a link to Wings Over Scotland.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You said that which parties the SNP went into coalition did not matter, basically. My example simply demonstrated that it did.

Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand?

Is Andrew the new jfman, OB?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Is Andrew the new jfman, OB?

Nope - I don't possess his debating stamina.