UK & EU Agree Post-Brexit Trade Deal

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I'm struggling a bit here Seph, can you explain to me why do they have to give us a Canada style deal or indeed any style of deal?

Well, you're absolutely right (save that you're not struggling at all), Grim.

But, Barnier originally offered the Canada deal.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...style-eu-deal/

My central point is that they are trying to punish us by now refusing a Canada style deal.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Well, you're absolutely right (save that you're not struggling at all), Grim.

But, Barnier originally offered the Canada deal.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...style-eu-deal/

My central point is that they are trying to punish us by now refusing a Canada style deal.

Looks like a U-Turn from Barnier.

[jfman]

In fairness, it’s not clear what if any differences there are between Canada and a ‘Canada style’ deal as being proposed. And Barnier is simply a middle man for Berlin and Paris.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

Looks like a U-Turn from Barnier.

That's certainly more plausible than the punish-us one.

Normally, if you punish someone or something, you let them know that you're doing it!

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Just trying to save you you from the negativity of playing the victim.

It's time for the likes of Michael Gove et al to take responsibility for their actions and not hide behind others when the outcomes don't match their 2016 speeches.

We could go round in circles on this. So I'll end this round here.

[jfman]

Plenty of time to go for more rounds between now and December

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That's certainly more plausible than the punish-us one.

Normally, if you punish someone or something, you let them know that you're doing it!

They are letting us know alright. Just you pretending not to notice.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Well, you're absolutely right (save that you're not struggling at all), Grim.

But, Barnier originally offered the Canada deal.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-...style-eu-deal/

My central point is that they are trying to punish us by now refusing a Canada style deal.

Thanks for telling me I'm not struggling - appreciated. Maybe I should have chosen my words better as I was actually struggling to see why you feel we're 'owed' any sort of deal.

I understand now why you're upset - you feel the EU must stand by everything their representatives say while ours on the other hand are free (and right?) to duck and dive as much as they want.

"Sovereignty", innit?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Thanks for telling me I'm not struggling - appreciated. Maybe I should have chosen my words better as I was actually struggling to see why you feel we're 'owed' any sort of deal.

I understand now why you're upset - you feel the EU must stand by everything their representatives say while ours on the other hand are free (and right?) to duck and dive as much as they want.

I think it's old-fashioned British exceptionalism rising to the surface again.

Meanwhile, Gibraltar is seeking closer EU ties.

Spain and Gibraltar seek last-minute Brexit deal

Keeping free movement would give British territory closer ties to EU than when it was part of bloc

While Boris Johnson’s government wants a Canada-style free trade Brexit deal for the UK itself, Gibraltar would like to become part of Europe’s Schengen free-movement area and eventually the EU’s customs union — to neither of which it has ever belonged.

The issue is becoming increasingly urgent, with negotiators attempting to thrash out an overall Brexit deal by mid-November and the parallel three-way talks between Spain, Gibraltar and the UK aiming to conclude immediately afterwards.

https://www.ft.com/content/50fa05a3-...1-d114ac609867

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Thanks for telling me I'm not struggling - appreciated. Maybe I should have chosen my words better as I was actually struggling to see why you feel we're 'owed' any sort of deal.

I understand now why you're upset - you feel the EU must stand by everything their representatives say while ours on the other hand are free (and right?) to duck and dive as much as they want.

Grim, for what my opinion is worth, the EU does not owe us a deal. I'm sure we both agree that a deal has to be negotiated to the mutual satisfaction of both sides.

I suppose you have a point that as negotiations and other matters progress/evolve, either party can change its position. So, you're right there.

All that said, I'm consistent in today's thread that the EU is intent on punishing us for not agreeing to continue to be controlled by them and not agreeing for them to have unfettered access to our fishing waters. If you cannot see that, then it's because you don't want to.

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

All that said, I'm consistent in today's thread that the EU is intent on punishing us for not agreeing to continue to be controlled by them and not agreeing for them to have unfettered access to our fishing waters. If you cannot see that, then it's because you don't want to.

I'm afraid I can see them wanting to give us less preferential treatment then they do to those country that still pay their subs, now if that's punishing us then yes you're right. I am smiling however how selective you are about us being 'promised' the Canada deal - in the very article you posted it says more than once that any such deal was years of negotiation away - it's almost you didn't (choose to?) read past the headline.

I just can't help thinking that some very pro-leave people are akin to someone cancelling their season ticket at their local premier league club then being incredulous when they find out they can't continue to have access to every home game for free. I don't like or agree with some of the things the EU have done but at the same time some of the things the UK have done have made me quite angry and are certainly not something as a county we should be proud of - if you can't see that then it must be because there are things you don't want to see either.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I am smiling however how selective you are about us being 'promised' the Canada deal - in the very article you posted it says more than once that any such deal was years of negotiation away - it's almost you didn't (choose to?) read past the headline.

There's a degree of desperation creeping in when this type of approach is used. To be fair, I can sympathise but not empathise with Seph as there's precious little else to prop up his opinion.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

There's a degree of desperation creeping in when this type of approach is used. To be fair, I can sympathise but not empathise with Seph as there's precious little else to prop up his opinion.

Grim said:

I don't like or agree with some of the things the EU have done but at the same time some of the things the UK have done have made me quite angry and are certainly not something as a county we should be proud of - if you can't see that then it must be because there are things you don't want to see either.

It's like he wants to argue with me talking to a different audience.

My opinion is simple and the evidence even stares you and Grim in the face.

1. The UK has left the EU as a result of a close-ish majority referendum vote.

2. The EU don't like that because they lose our money and it might tempt others.

3. The EU wants to differentiate between "benefits" of membership vs a simple trade deal.

4. The UK government wants a simple trade deal so maintaining our sovereignty.

5. The EU demands that they want to continue fishing in our waters as before.

6. The EU demands a "level playing field" that ties us into their laws and courts.

7. If reports are to be believed, everything else has been agreed.

8. The Guvmin has stupidly inflamed negotiations in the Internal Market Bill.

The above list is a pat analysis with minimum of implied criticism of the EU and definite criticism of the UK Guvmin.

Then comes the more emotional response from the likes of me and other intelligent (!) critics of the EU. I won't repeat that now - no need.

So, it seems to me that the difference between Andrew/Grim and the likes of myself come down to Remainer/Leaver sentiments. For Grim to have said that I can't see something the UK has done not to be proud of is plain daft.

My sentiment is simple - we are a sovereign nation not to be ruled to any degree by the EU.

[tweetiepooh]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Grim said:



It's like he wants to argue with me talking to a different audience.

My opinion is simple and the evidence even stares you and Grim in the face.

<snip>
2. The EU don't like that because they lose our money and it might tempt others.

3. The EU wants to differentiate between "benefits" of membership vs a simple trade deal.

<snip>

I think these are the points that are really the sticking points on the EU side.
3. Is fair enough, there should be differences between trade/movement deals and full membership.

2. Is what is at the nub of the situation for the EU side. If we can leave the club but still trade and have some degree of movement then the whole club can become a non-entitiy as others would want the same.