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Will Scotland Leave the UK?
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Old 21-08-2020, 22:37   #3181
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I don't need to explain because I'm not making the case for it. But even if you're making the case for something, you don't necessarily need to go into exquisite detail at the pitch stage. You leave that for someone else to sort out at the delivery stage.

That being said, I'm sure there's nothing unique about Scotland that would prevent it from being a successful independent country.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth
He doesn't need to explain. Andrew is in no doubt that independent Scotland would be up economic shit creek as sure as their fiscal strength would be nil.
Not that it matters much, but you just dropped a couple of notches in my estimation.


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Old 21-08-2020, 23:03   #3182
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
I don't need to explain because I'm not making the case for it. But even if you're making the case for something, you don't necessarily need to go into exquisite detail at the pitch stage. You leave that for someone else to sort out at the delivery stage.

That being said, I'm sure there's nothing unique about Scotland that would prevent it from being a successful independent country.
So what's currently stopping Scotland from being financially successful and prudent?

They've had access to the markets of the EU, and others countries the EU has agreements with, and still have access to the rest of the UK. Any rule-based restrictions they face with the rest of the World are done to the EU. The bulk of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. A chunk of that can only be exported to the rest of the UK, due to geographical constraints. Eg Romania can't easily buy electricity produced in Scotland.

With Brexit they are issues that couldn't be gone into, ahead of the referendum, because they depended on what might or might not be agreed with the EU. As the UK was already independent, there were issues that didn't need discussing compared to Scottish Independence.
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Old 21-08-2020, 23:14   #3183
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
So what's currently stopping Scotland from being financially successful and prudent?

They've had access to the markets of the EU, and others countries the EU has agreements with, and still have access to the rest of the UK. Any rule-based restrictions they face with the rest of the World are done to the EU. The bulk of Scottish exports go to the rest of the UK. A chunk of that can only be exported to the rest of the UK, due to geographical constraints. Eg Romania can't easily buy electricity produced in Scotland.

With Brexit they are issues that couldn't be gone into, ahead of the referendum, because they depended on what might or might not be agreed with the EU. As the UK was already independent, there were issues that didn't need discussing compared to Scottish Independence.
England.
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Old 21-08-2020, 23:26   #3184
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by 1andrew1 View Post
Given some of his more anachronistic views of the Scots, I'm not sure Old Boy would be permitted to travel north of Berwick.

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:08 ----------


Just replace "Scotland" with "the UK" and "English" with "European Union" and "our" with "their" and you will have the Brexit scenario neatly summed up. .
Seeing as the UK part-funded the EU, it's the other way around. The EU are the ones looking for money and everything else from the UK. The amount of money the EU is to lose from the UK is less than what Scotland currently gets from the UK.
Link
Quote:
Net Fiscal Balance 2018-19
This is the difference between total revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:
  • Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £12.6 billion (7.0% of GDP).
  • Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £14.1 billion (8.5% of GDP).
  • For the UK, was a deficit of £23.5 billion (1.1% of GDP).
Incredible that more than half of the total UK deficit is down to Scotland.

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman View Post
England.
How? As I said, they have access to English and EU markets. The UK has even had Scottish PMs, Blair and Brown. What restrictions are England placing on Scotland, that the Scottish government can't remove? And could any possible changes close the £12bn gap?

Last edited by nomadking; 21-08-2020 at 23:29.
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Old 21-08-2020, 23:35   #3185
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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How? As I said, they have access to English and EU markets. The UK has even had Scottish PMs, Blair and Brown. What restrictions are England placing on Scotland, that the Scottish government can't remove? And could any possible changes close the £12bn gap?
England isn’t some benign, philanthropist entity. It’s essentially been a cancer on the world since the days of Empire, extracting wealth from every nation it rules over. Waging war against some of those it doesn’t.

It makes choices (as does Brussels) that favour some parts of the country over others. Essentially Britain is governed to suit the financial sector, consultants and other industries. It’s governed to maintain high asset values to give some sense of security given the levels of household debt.

There’s macroeconomic levers not available to Scotland (or Wales, or any English region) that essentially prioritise the interests of some parts of the country over others. Just as the UK and Southern Europe view the EU as acting in the interests of Paris and Berlin.
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Old 21-08-2020, 23:39   #3186
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
England isn’t some benign, philanthropist entity. It’s essentially been a cancer on the world since the days of Empire, extracting wealth from every nation it rules over. Waging war against some of those it doesn’t.

It makes choices (as does Brussels) that favour some parts of the country over others. Essentially Britain is governed to suit the financial sector, consultants and other industries. It’s governed to maintain high asset values to give some sense of security given the levels of household debt.

There’s macroeconomic levers not available to Scotland (or Wales, or any English region) that essentially prioritise the interests of some parts of the country over others. Just as the UK and Southern Europe view the EU as acting in the interests of Paris and Berlin.
I’m having a Cyndi Lauper moment
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Old 22-08-2020, 00:21   #3187
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

The Billions that England sends north of the border must really harm the Scots.
How did the Royal Bank of Scotland work out?

Still waiting for examples of where England is blocking Scottish entrepreneurial spirit, compared to England itself. A lot of the business rules and regulations are set by the Scots themselves.
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Old 22-08-2020, 00:53   #3188
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

It’s all about the macroeconomic levers Scotland doesn’t have, and which separatists cheerfully assert Scotland would pull more effectively than the U.K does. Most separatist rhetoric boils down to exceptionalism. Scotland would do better because Scotland is better. It just is, and it is therefore quite logical that everything that goes wrong is horrible cancerous England’s fault.

To be fair even for many Scottish separatists that’s an extreme position. I’m beginning to think Jfman is a bot, run by Wingnuts Over Scotland.
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Old 22-08-2020, 01:04   #3189
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The Billions that England sends north of the border must really harm the Scots.
How did the Royal Bank of Scotland work out?

Still waiting for examples of where England is blocking Scottish entrepreneurial spirit, compared to England itself. A lot of the business rules and regulations are set by the Scots themselves.
The calculations by which England claims to be a net contributor to Scotland are unsurprisingly English.

Unsure what the Royal Bank of Scotland have to do with anything. A public limited company enjoying the excesses of capitalism, requiring state intervention, isn’t something any state trying to run a reputable financial sector would encourage. It’s entirely possible that appropriate regulation within Scotland would have prevented many of the problems, or caused the Bank to relocate to exploit weaker regulatory systems (England).

---------- Post added 22-08-2020 at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was 21-08-2020 at 23:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
It’s all about the macroeconomic levers Scotland doesn’t have, and which separatists cheerfully assert Scotland would pull more effectively than the U.K does. Most separatist rhetoric boils down to exceptionalism. Scotland would do better because Scotland is better. It just is, and it is therefore quite logical that everything that goes wrong is horrible cancerous England’s fault.

To be fair even for many Scottish separatists that’s an extreme position. I’m beginning to think Jfman is a bot, run by Wingnuts Over Scotland.
You, frankly, know that’s nonsense. Considering the UK is £2 trillion in debt I’m not sure it’s “exceptionalism” for people in Scotland to think that they could have more adequately spent their share or borrowed less in the long run by making better economic investments in the past.

The fact the devolved government cannot borrow at all means it’s living essentially year on year with minimal capability to instigate long term projects. Meanwhile London gets HS2 and Crossrail.

It’s hardly an extreme position to consider that Conservative governments act in their interests in London. Yet consistently Scottish voters did not vote for said Governments. Your claim, ludicrously, is that England knows better than Scotland what is good for Scotland. A position it would have claimed over every other country in the Empire yet not a single one has came crawling back begging for rule from London. A claim that I’d personally like Red Card or a distinguished unionist to say as it’d be the final nail in the coffin.
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Old 22-08-2020, 10:11   #3190
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

1. Presenting the present level of national debt as indicative of economic mismanagement is plainly silly under the present circumstances.
2. “Every other country in the empire” is likewise a very silly statement, profoundly ahistorical, and rooted in the other great strand of Scottish exceptionalistic thinking ... the notion that Scotland is somehow a victim of an English empire, rather than the actual truth, that it was always an active and enthusiastic partner in the British empire.

Last edited by Chris; 22-08-2020 at 10:43.
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Old 22-08-2020, 10:36   #3191
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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Originally Posted by jfman View Post
<SNIP.

It’s hardly an extreme position to consider that Conservative governments act in their interests in London. Yet consistently Scottish voters did not vote for said Governments. Your claim, ludicrously, is that England knows better than Scotland what is good for Scotland. A position it would have claimed over every other country in the Empire yet not a single one has came crawling back begging for rule from London. A claim that I’d personally like Red Card or a distinguished unionist to say as it’d be the final nail in the coffin.
You’ve let yourself down there, my friend.

Of course they’re not begging for UK administration - it would cut off their corrupt incomes. But I’d bet the true people might be more sympathetic to UK administration. Right now there are similar noises from the streets of Lebanon wrt France (who wouldn’t touch it with yours).

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Old 22-08-2020, 10:40   #3192
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

The figures I quoted came from the Scottish Government.
Quote:
Scotland’s net fiscal balance has improved for the third year in a row, according to statistics announced today by Scotland’s Chief Statistician.
Net Fiscal Balance 2018-19
This is the difference between total revenue and total public sector expenditure including capital investment. The net fiscal balance:
  • Including an illustrative geographic share of North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £12.6 billion (7.0% of GDP).
  • Excluding North Sea revenue, was a deficit of £14.1 billion (8.5% of GDP).
  • For the UK, was a deficit of £23.5 billion (1.1% of GDP).
If they was something that fundamentally wrong with the calculations, why didn't those Scots Blair, Brown, and Darling do something about it?



RBS was an example of a Scottish Financial institution, and without access to England would never have got anywhere in the first place. Not every country in the world can be a major international finance hub.



HS2 and Crossrail are not just a way of spending money, they are essential because of the heavy demand in those areas.

Scotland has its own infrastructure projects, decided by the Scots(ie SNP).
Quote:
Infrastructure investment
Infrastructure in Scotland is funded by user charges, regulatory regimes, private sector, UK Government and local authorities as well as central Scottish Government funds.
Our current infrastructure investment programme includes record investment in improving road and rail infrastructure, which is creating jobs, helping businesses, and supporting sustainable economic growth across Scotland.
...
Tax Incremental Financing (TIF) is a means of funding public sector investment in infrastructure which is judged to be necessary for regeneration but which may be otherwise unaffordable to local authorities.
How TIF works
TIF uses future additional revenue gains from taxes to finance the borrowing required to fund public infrastructure improvements, which will in turn create those revenue gains.

In what ways does the UK government(even under Labour) act in a way to disadvantage Scotland, but somehow give England an advantage?



England faces the constant possibility of being ruled over by Labour and the SNP, even if England voted Conservative. Eg Education and Health could be ruled over by Labour. You could even have the crazy situation where a devolved department(eg Education) was headed by a Scottish MP, perhaps even a SNP one. There is no English devolved government to take control of devolved issues. What other country on the planet would be allowed to get away with that perverse situation.
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Old 22-08-2020, 11:10   #3193
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

Every single hypothetical you name there Nomadking has not happened. There’s simply no rules to prevent such a situation, that doesn’t mean it’d be deemed acceptable for them to happen - or even that they would.

If macroeconomic levers are some kind of Scottish myth why is it considered important by the EU member states outside the Eurozone, including the UK until this year, to remain outside?

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
1. Presenting the present level of national debt as indicative of economic mismanagement is plainly silly under the present circumstances.
2. “Every other country in the empire” is likewise a very silly statement, profoundly ahistorical, and rooted in the other great strand of Scottish exceptionalistic thinking ... the notion that Scotland is somehow a victim of an English empire, rather than the actual truth, that it was always an active and enthusiastic partner in the British empire.
I don’t see how it’s particularly exceptional for people to believe that local decisions are better than foreign decisions. It’s exactly the same argument about decision making in London vs Brussels.

Scotland of course greatly benefited in the past, through slavery and trade links with colonies in the past. One only has to walk around Glasgow to see a city built upon this with street names reflective of this. That however doesn’t necessarily make the Union fit for the 21st century. It’s hardly a Union that has the consent of the people if you suggest they be held prisoner to it because of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Again not one for the doorstep campaign, I suspect.
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Old 22-08-2020, 11:23   #3194
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

A third amusing strand of separatist rhetoric is the continual reference to the 17th and 18th centuries as evidence that Scotland is somehow a prisoner. How desperately they wish to forget their leaders declared a “once-in-a-generation, if not once-in-a-lifetime” referendum, whose result, just 6 short years ago, was Scotland’s continued partnership in the U.K.
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Old 22-08-2020, 11:29   #3195
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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?

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A third amusing strand of separatist rhetoric is the continual reference to the 17th and 18th centuries as evidence that Scotland is somehow a prisoner. How desperately they wish to forget their leaders declared a “once-in-a-generation, if not once-in-a-lifetime” referendum, whose result, just 6 short years ago, was Scotland’s continued partnership in the U.K.
You are the one who contested that Scotland has in the past benefitted from the Union. I simply agreed with you, I fail to see how that can be considered “rhetoric”.

I’m asking someone to make a 21st century case for one.

“Once in a generation, once in a lifetime“ was an obvious error to say, as it has no legal standing and you cannot reasonably bind those joining the electorate to the decisions of the past for longer beyond the point where it is no longer democratically tolerable. Politicians got caught up in some grandiose rhetoric to underline the historic occasion upon them, but it’s demonstrably ridiculous to bind a country to a decision for “a lifetime” considering tens of thousands die, and join the electorate, each year - never mind some change their mind.
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