Hamas Israel War

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

It’s not flimsy.

If they had incorrect intelligence given to them or had mistakenly observed the individuals or for whatever other reason they thought that convoy contained Hamas soldiers. Then they legitimately fired upon it.

No doubt an investigation will determine what happened.

But as long as they didn’t deliberately fire upon a target that they knew to be innocent aid workers, and there’s no evidence either way at the moment. Then as unfortunate as it is, at the moment, it is a tragic mistake. Or a failure in command and control, and/or negligence.

That needs to be investigated and prevented from happening in the future.

But to suggest IDF deliberately murdered those people is absolutely baseless, at this moment.

Israel has been killing aid workers for decades and will be killing them for decades more. Only killing innocent Palestinians is a greater certainty from their military “tactics”.

The investigations into previous ones clearly done little to inform decision making to prevent this massacre, nor the massacre of women and children up and down the Gaza Strip under the guise of “targeting” Hamas.

The only interesting thing about this is the hole in the car roof that demonstrates the kind of precision weapons that Israel could use. Which is interesting when held against the rubble that remains of many buildings, including hospitals, where different ammunition with used with a callous disregard for the inevitable cost in innocent human lives.

Murder has a specific definition, so I don’t use that word in this case, however Israel absolutely permitted their deaths and deemed it a price worth paying until they saw the passports.

[ianch99]

For those who think these events are just "mistakes", watch this C4 News report:

At least 196 aid workers killed in Israel-Hamas war

This is all in line with the strategic goals of the Israeli war effort.

[jfman]

I wonder what was different about the first 189.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

I wonder what was different about the 'first 189.

The IDF did not hold investigations into these 'accidental targetings' as their government couldn't complain. Not that the aid agencies would have much faith in the independence of such investigations.

World Central Kitchen founder claims aid workers targeted 'systematically, car by car'

Celebrity chef Jose Andres has accused Israel of targeting aid workers "systematically, car by car" in Gaza.

Mr Andres, who founded the World Central Kitchen, claims the Israeli military knew the charity's movements on the day of the airstrike which killed seven workers.

He said it was not a "bad luck situation where, 'oops,' we dropped the bomb in the wrong place".

"Even if we were not in coordination with the [IDF], no democratic country and no military can be targeting civilians and humanitarians," he added.

Benjamin Netanyahu has called the strike unintentional.

But Mr Andres said the humanitarian convoy was "very defined" and the cars had a "very colourful logo" on the roof.

It was "very clear who we are and what we do," he added.

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-ea...trike-12978800

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I think you have made a good point here: the rationale was "if there was a chance of a Hamas operative being in the vehicles (spoiler alert: there wasn't)

Did they know that? Were they told there was? Did they see something that made them think there was?

then kill them all". It is a rationale being applied to all of Gaza: if there is a chance Hamas maybe in a location then just kill everyone there.

To a point, that is a legitimate approach.

If you make it known that to Hamas that if they use human shields you will not be dissuaded, perhaps they’ll stop using human shields.

The absence of basic humanity and morality is chilling.

from Hamas? It certainly is.

I do think this aid convoy massacre will prove a turning point. I suspect Sunak is under real pressure to stop sending bombs to Israel since to do so, is to aid & abet what is now playing out in Gaza.

It changes nothing, and to think Sunak has any relevance is laughable.

[jfman]

Was there evidence that there were innocent civilians in harms way when they took three attempts at eliminating the convoy for the sake of one person who might have been in there?

By December, Israel had dropped more bombs on Gaza than there are Hamas militants. Now it might just get that Israel aren't very good at this, however Occam's razor (and tens of thousands of dead and injured innocent women and children) would suggest it's not about the militants.

Israel aren't entitled to submit Gaza to unlimited human suffering for as long as they think Hamas might pose a threat. That has no basis in morality or international law.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Israel has been killing aid workers for decades and will be killing them for decades more. Only killing innocent Palestinians is a greater certainty from their military “tactics”.

The investigations into previous ones clearly done little to inform decision making to prevent this massacre, nor the massacre of women and children up and down the Gaza Strip under the guise of “targeting” Hamas.

The only interesting thing about this is the hole in the car roof that demonstrates the kind of precision weapons that Israel could use. Which is interesting when held against the rubble that remains of many buildings, including hospitals, where different ammunition with used with a callous disregard for the inevitable cost in innocent human lives.

Murder has a specific definition, so I don’t use that word in this case, however Israel absolutely permitted their deaths and deemed it a price worth paying until they saw the passports.

You and most other Sunday afternoon Westerners with their luxury beliefs that don’t live in the region are only piping up because it’s Israel. If Egypt or Jordan were doing this you’d say absolutely sod-all.

I know for a fact don’t give a toss about Yemen and the deaths and famine caused by Saudi Arabia….because no Jews were involved in those deaths.

and if Egypt suddenly rolled into Israel, and was joined by Hezbollah, and Islamists from Jordan, that went on to invade Israel and massacre Jews and try to eradicate the Israeli state.

You’d probably celebrate it, with all your mates on a Sunday march in London.

Israel will do what they have to do, regardless of what anyone thinks and regardless of other opinions, because if they don’t. It will happen again, and again.

If you can’t see that, then I can’t help you anymore.

This is beyond appeasing america or other other allies, or the UN. America is a friend of Israel’s but Israel is not their puppy dog, and the US know this and will only go so far.

Israel will carry on until they are satisfied that they can stop. Not before.

This unfortunate incident will not change anything. It will be in the headlines for a few days, and will be forgotten as soon as the next incident occurs, or some other major thing happens globally.

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:40 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Was there evidence that there were innocent civilians in harms way when they took three attempts at eliminating the convoy for the sake of one person who might have been in there?

What if the intelligence said Hamas was definitely in there?

By December, Israel had dropped more bombs on Gaza than there are Hamas militants. Now it might just get that Israel aren't very good at this, however Occam's razor (and tens of thousands of dead and injured innocent women and children) would suggest it's not about the militants.

It is totally about wiping out Hamas

Israel aren't entitled to submit Gaza to unlimited human suffering for as long as they think Hamas might pose a threat. That has no basis in morality or international law.

Israel are removing Hamas as a threat

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

You and most other Sunday afternoon Westerners with their luxury beliefs that don’t live in the region are only piping up because it’s Israel. If Egypt or Jordan were doing this you’d say absolutely sod-all.

I know for a fact don’t give a toss about Yemen and the deaths and famine caused by Saudi Arabia….because no Jews were involved in those deaths.

and if Egypt suddenly rolled into Israel, and was joined by Hezbollah, and Islamists from Jordan, that went on to invade Israel and massacre Jews and try to eradicate the Israeli state.

You’d probably celebrate it, with all your mates on a Sunday march in London.

Israel will do what they have to do, regardless of what anyone thinks and regardless of other opinions, because if they don’t. It will happen again, and again.

If you can’t see that, then I can’t help you anymore.

This is beyond appeasing america or other other allies, or the UN. America is a friend of Israel’s but Israel is not their puppy dog, and the US know this and will only go so far.

Israel will carry on until they are satisfied that they can stop. Not before.

This unfortunate incident will not change anything. It will be in the headlines for a few days, and will be forgotten as soon as the next incident occurs, or some other major thing happens globally.

It's not a luxury belief to think Palestinians have a right to die of starvation in their own land or be ethnically cleansed from it as some of Netanyahu's coalition partners have called for. To describe opposition human suffering of hundreds of thousands of people in such a glib manner says more about your opinion of Palestinians than mine of Israelis.

Your descent into the gutter to smear us all as anti-semitic is the last desperate haven for those defending the disgusting actions of the Israeli government. We see through you.

Israel may well continue for some time, eroding what little standing they have left and dragging America's moral authority down with them. I'll be right here condemning them, their lies, their deceit, their crimes, every step of the way.

This war might be good for the short term share prices in the military industrial complex but will do nothing for the security of Israel or those that enabled them in the long run.

The straw man of an Egyptian, or any other hypothetical invasion of Israel is irrelevant. However, to give it a little latitude - if they did so, systematically destroying synagogues, hospitals, destroying half the buildings in Israel and pushing two thirds of the population to the border as the only mechanism for ensuring the safety and security of their Palestinian cousins what would the difference be (besides their religion and the colour of their skin)? Would that be bad things happening in the "fog of war"? Nation states doing "what needed to be done" to secure the region?

Or, and I'd propose more likely, a straight up case of ethnic cleansing. The opposite view: Instead of stating the obvious it could cloud everything in opaque and military terms, viewing everything through a narrow prism of one single event, blaming one side and defending the other with total disregard for the lives lost and livelihoods destroyed in a revenge campagn. That's a Sunday afternoon luxury belief right there.

[mrmistoffelees]

A rather interesting, thought provoking and somewhat harrowing read

https://apple.news/Av3q-Ix3bSbWHSelzZs75gQ

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

I do think this aid convoy massacre will prove a turning point.

It seems to have been.

Analysis: New routes the most significant move on aid since war began

This three-point announcement to ease aid flows into Gaza represents the most significant move by Israel since this conflict began six months ago.

It follows a call between President Biden and Prime Minister Netanyahu. It was a tense, challenging conversation I am told, but not one in which any direct ultimatums were issued by the Americans. The US vibe was more "you're making it harder and harder for us to support you" than "do this, or else".

The Biden-Netanyahu relationship has been increasingly tested and my sense is this call represented the most strained moment yet.

Biden's levers to effect change are limited, but these announcements represent a real moment of change.

We don't yet have a confirmed timeline for when the three measures will become a reality but I am told its likely to be days not weeks.

First – Israel's southern port of Ashdod is to be authorised to receive aid for Gaza. This alone will be a game-changing moment. Remember the Americans had been forced to announce the construction of a temporary port off the Gaza shoreline to receive aid. Now it can come from Cyprus into a fully functioning port.

Second – the Erez crossing from Israel into the northern Gaza strip will be opened for aid transfers. This will be another game-changing moment. Aid arriving in Ashdod can then be driven the 20 miles south to Erez and across into the strip.

Third – there will be a streamlining of the movement of aid through the south-eastern Kerem Shalom crossing from Israel into Gaza. It's not clear precisely what this will look like but I am told it could involve military trucks from Jordan being allowed straight into Gaza through Kerem Shalom.

https://news.sky.com/story/middle-ea...trike-12978800

[jfman]

Opening new routes having emphatically executed aid workers in a safe zone merely days before is lip service.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

Opening new routes having emphatically executed aid workers in a safe zone merely days before is lip service.

I was thinking what fundamentals have changed in the war to facilitate increased aid routes being made available? None except the deaths of Western aid workers.