Brexit

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

That’s usually how discussions framed principally in ideology go. Uncompromising.

… but naming no names, some people know how to be annoyingly provocative making idealistic civility rather difficult. Brexit is a highly divisive and emotive topic.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

… but naming no names, some people know how to be annoyingly provocative making idealistic civility rather difficult. Brexit is a highly divisive and emotive topic.

Only if we as individuals allow it to happen.We can refuse to join in with those that refuse to be civil.

[nomadking]

Democracy can be measured by how much respect is shown for a democratic vote. Leave WON, apparently. The disrespect is being shown the Remain side. If Remain had won there would be nothing like the outright sabotage that is going on.


Every single thing that is going on is aimed fully at preventing the outcome of the democratic vote.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

… but naming no names, some people know how to be annoyingly provocative making idealistic civility rather difficult. Brexit is a highly divisive and emotive topic.

Yes Brexit is a highly divisive and emotive topic of that there is no doubt but being civil is very easy at the end of the day as its a bit like disagreements in ones family as family members might disagree on a good many things in life but generally always remain civil to each other despite their disagreements.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

Only if we as individuals allow it to happen.We can refuse to join in with those that refuse to be civil.

It's not a matter of refusing to be civil - at least in my case. Reacting to provocation is a different matter.

Btw, when I provoke reaction through the use of words such as "hegemony", "perfidy" and the like, I enjoy whatever lack of civility ensues.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by denphone

Yes Brexit is a highly divisive and emotive topic of that there is no doubt but being civil is very easy at the end of the day as its a bit like disagreements in ones family as family members might disagree on a good many things in life but generally always remain civil to each other despite their disagreements.

A key difference with family arguments is that with Brexit there is a majority verdict.



With a family argument, if there was a majority or agreed decision, then those trying to subvert that decision would rightly be criticised.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Democracy can be measured by how much respect is shown for a democratic vote. Leave WON, apparently. The disrespect is being shown the Remain side. If Remain had won there would be nothing like the outright sabotage that is going on.

Every single thing that is going on is aimed fully at preventing the outcome of the democratic vote.

That’s because we don’t live in a true democracy. There’s an illusion of it. Power in this country is dominated by a ruling elite in politics and the media (even half the comedians ffs). Oxford and Cambridge aren’t elite universities solely because of the quality of education. It’s the circles you move into (and their extended families) that have dominated much of public life for centuries. You’re buying a place within that.

Cameron offered the referendum on the basis of thinking it was a slam dunk and he could heal divisions within the Conservative party.

The establishment is simply trying to correct its error (offering the referendum in the first place). The opinions of you, me and the general population are irrelevant really. An unelected House of
Lords and a lack of proportional representation ensure nothing can change significantly.

[nomadking]

Any lack of respect and civility is coming from the Remain side. None of the delays and discussions are aimed at being prepared. They are ONLY aimed at preventing Brexit.


Just imagine if the outcome of the last or a future referendum on Scottish Independence went the same way as this. At least the "Remain" side(No to independence) in that situation wouldn't obstruct the outcome to the same extent and would complain if it was. That is a truly sinister aspect of all this. Only certain opinions are allowed. Certain groups cannot be criticised, no matter what. You do so, on "pain of death". EG your career is over.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The last few posts would seem to counter that assertion.

Ahhh, be nice

I think most of us here are reasonably well informed on the structures of the EU and out Government. The disagreement comes on what that actually means.

The EU way of doing things is different from the UK as the executive and legislative are separate organisations. To an extent, the EU system is like the US system with the President setting policy and the houses voting on those policies.

So yes, the system is different. Is it wrong, no. Is it perfect, no. Is it better or worse than the UK system? That's where we disagree. In my view, it's not better or worse, just different.

Of course, when the executive and legislative disagree, that's when the fun begins - see where we are now in the UK and recent shutdown in the US. Looking through Votewatch Europe, the Parliament seems to vote against proposals roughly 10-15% of the time suggesting a reasonably good alignment between the Commission and Parliament but that isn't too much of a surprise as the makup of the commissioners is roughly the same as the makeup of the Parliament in terms of party affiliation (interestingly, the UK Commissioner is non-aligned)

Contrast this with the UK Government losing a vote on proposed legislation. Then, all hell breaks loose!

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Any lack of respect and civility is coming from the Remain side. None of the delays and discussions are aimed at being prepared. They are ONLY aimed at preventing Brexit.

Just imagine if the outcome of the last or a future referendum on Scottish Independence went the same way as this. At least the "Remain" side(No to independence) in that situation wouldn't obstruct the outcome to the same extent and would complain if it was. That is a truly sinister aspect of all this. Only certain opinions are allowed. Certain groups cannot be criticised, no matter what. You do so, on "pain of death". EG your career is over.

I don’t think you can reasonably say all of those in favour of a delay want to prevent Brexit. We aren’t prepared, and were never prepared for March 29, for a no deal scenario. It’s reasonable for anyone to suggest an extension on that basis (remainer or leave side).

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ahhh, be nice

I think most of us here are reasonably well informed on the structures of the EU and out Government. The disagreement comes on what that actually means.

The EU way of doing things is different from the UK as the executive and legislative are separate organisations. To an extent, the EU system is like the US system with the President setting policy and the houses voting on those policies.

So yes, the system is different. Is it wrong, no. Is it perfect, no. Is it better or worse than the UK system? That's where we disagree. In my view, it's not better or worse, just different.

Of course, when the executive and legislative disagree, that's when the fun begins - see where we are now in the UK and recent shutdown in the US. Looking through Votewatch Europe, the Parliament seems to vote against proposals roughly 10-15% of the time suggesting a reasonably good alignment between the Commission and Parliament but that isn't too much of a surprise as the makup of the commissioners is roughly the same as the makeup of the Parliament in terms of party affiliation (interestingly, the UK Commissioner is non-aligned)

Contrast this with the UK Government losing a vote on proposed legislation. Then, all hell breaks loose!

Nothing to do with the structure of EU governance.



Nothing happens without the say so of Germany and France. Just look at how many meeting just the two of them have. I wonder how many of the EU directives and regulations haven't first been implemented or proposed in Germany and France? How many have they been forced to accept against their will? The declared aim is to have a "level playing field", which means that every EU country has to be hampered by the same rules as Germany and France. Is Romania, for example, ever going to be able to match Germany? Of course not. No amount of money is going to enable that. Yet that is what the EU is supposedly attempting to do.

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I don’t think you can reasonably say all of those in favour of a delay want to prevent Brexit. We aren’t prepared, and were never prepared for March 29, for a no deal scenario. It’s reasonable for anyone to suggest an extension on that basis (remainer or leave side).

If that is the case, then there is absolutely no reason for further discussions of any sort with anybody. The ONGOING and seemingly never-ending discussions are only aimed at CHANGING the "destination" from "Leave". NONE of the discussions are aimed at "what do we need to do to make Brexit work".

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Jon can only be held responsible for his own posts, not the last few posts.

I meant his last few posts, does everything really need spelling out to you syllable by syllable, anyway this is a digression I won’t pursue any further.

[jfman]

Yes they are. A customs union and single market alignment are exactly the kind of discussions around making Brexit work that you describe.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I don’t think you can reasonably say all of those in favour of a delay want to prevent Brexit. We aren’t prepared, and were never prepared for March 29, for a no deal scenario. It’s reasonable for anyone to suggest an extension on that basis (remainer or leave side).

If they said there will be a delay whilst we prepare for a no deal Brexit, I’d be fine with that.

Although I would liken it to removing a plaster, the longer and slower it is the more painful it is.

just rip it off, it will sting, but just for a short while.

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Yes they are. A customs union and single market alignment are exactly the kind of discussions around making Brexit work that you describe.

Which isn’t leaving the EU.............oh look it’s Punxsutawney Phil!

[jfman]

Indeed.

Those in favour are missing a trick though. It’s Brexit without the risk. The conversation moves on and we have left the EU legally. Remaining is no longer in the conversation.

A customs union could apply to goods (which is ideal really) but not services. This would allow the UK to strike deals with the rest of the world on the supply of services.

If, down the line, we wanted to renegotiate or leave a customs union we could. Freedom of movement would have long since been dead. It becomes a conversation about trade only. We can all agree we want more trade that benefits us?

Remainers are fighting for the “whole package”. Eliminate some of it and reduce it to a trade discussion in five years time and far fewer numbers will be interested in the debate at all.