Brexit

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Deluded. The "democratically elected parliament" is a sham as it represents 28 countries of significant cultural, political and historic differences. The process of electing this gravy train may follow conventional democratic lines, but there is nothing democratic about the ganging up, the groupings and the sheer intent to federalise the EU when none of the public want anything like that.

As for the Council, there is nothing democratic (nor undemocratic) about it. The members are the political leaders of the 28 countries. These are appointments to the Council, not elected to the Council; of course I have no objection to the Council - it needs to be there; but it doesn't fall into the "democratic" category. In the UK we don't elect a PM.

Perversely, it was better when there was no EU parliament - just the Commission (they were turds then) and the Council or whatever it was called then.

To call someone who someone deluded just because they don't agree with you is a somewhat absolutist position.

So cultural differences negate the fact that the representatives that were elected by the population and is therefore undemocratic? What level of cultural, political of historical granularity is democratic? Is, for example, Belgium as a nation democratic when there are clear historical and cultural differences between Wallonia and Flanders? How about Germany that was federalised in 1871? How about the UK in 1707? in Does devolution in the UK make this country more or less democratic?

On ganging up, does the party political system in any governmental system result in the same thing? Do we vote for a representative or a party? If we vote for a party, then 'ganging up' occurs in any system.

In terms of the council, the heads of state are democratically and directly elected in France, Poland, Austria, Ireland, Finland, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovania, Lithuania and Cyprus. The heads of state for Germany and Italy are voted by their relevant Parliaments. It's a pretty good sample to be fair. To say the Council is undemocratic because of how nations appoint their heads of state states that systems where the head of state is appointed are equally undemocratic and this would include the UK

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Only come across as patronising as he’s trying to educate a blissfully ignorant person.

Just asking a question about a perception of how the EU works as it was a surprise to me that the Commission did things that go against how I understand in terms of the relationship between the Commission, Parliament and Council

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

To call someone who someone deluded just because they don't agree with you is a somewhat absolutist position.

So cultural differences negate the fact that the representatives that were elected by the population and is therefore undemocratic? What level of cultural, political of historical granularity is democratic? Is, for example, Belgium as a nation democratic when there are clear historical and cultural differences between Wallonia and Flanders? How about Germany that was federalised in 1871? How about the UK in 1707? in Does devolution in the UK make this country more or less democratic? SEPH: I'm sorry - but that's a load of waffle. The EU Parliament self selects its political groups into voting pacts that we did not vote for. The EU Parliament is a democratic sham.

On ganging up, does the party political system in any governmental system result in the same thing? Do we vote for a representative or a party? If we vote for a party, then 'ganging up' occurs in any system.

In terms of the council, the heads of state are democratically and directly elected in France, Poland, Austria, Ireland, Finland, Portugal, Czech Republic, Romania, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovania, Lithuania and Cyprus. The heads of state for Germany and Italy are voted by their relevant Parliaments. It's a pretty good sample to be fair. To say the Council is undemocratic because of how nations appoint their heads of state states that systems where the head of state is appointed are equally undemocratic and this would include the UK
SEPH:You seem deliberately to have missed my point. I have no quarrel that there is a deciding Council that comprises the 28 heads of government. The appointment to the EU Council is automatic. Read what I said - as for the Council, there is nothing democratic (nor undemocratic) about it. The members are the political leaders of the 28 countries. These are appointments to the Council, not elected to the Council; I did not say it was undemocratic.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:29 ----------


<SNIP>

We seem to be re-fighting the 2016 campaign ... again ... which is more than a little tiresome.

A sovereign independent nation decides its laws via electoral processes and representatives within its borders. It does not have legislation forced upon it by supranational institutions, and the fig leaf of democracy which we are graciously allowed to have a small share in is no recompense. For me, that really is the beginning and the end of the Brexit debate. Whatever the supposed benefits of EU membership, the cost is far too high.

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 21:58 ----------

Originally Posted by jonbxx

So cultural differences negate the fact that the representatives that were elected by the population and is therefore undemocratic? What level of cultural, political of historical granularity is democratic? Is, for example, Belgium as a nation democratic when there are clear historical and cultural differences between Wallonia and Flanders? How about Germany that was federalised in 1871? How about the UK in 1707? in Does devolution in the UK make this country more or less democratic?

Not cultural differences, no. There are cultural differences between the nations of the UK and even within the nations.

The question within the UK and across Europe is whether or not there is a single demos - a single political consciousness. Within the UK, there is. A general election campaign is visibly similar in Glasgow and in London, even despite regional differences such as the SNP, which for all its pretensions is a very British political party that operates in just the same way as, for example, Labour. Spend a few minutes watching First Minister’s Questions in Holyrood and you are left in no doubt that you’re observing exactly the same political culture as Westminster, no matter how much they might hate to admit it.

There is an identifiable British political consciousness which allows political parties to operate across the country (with the notable exception of Northern Ireland) that is not replicated at the EU level. There are no pan-EU parties; there will be no pan-EU manifestos or coordinated campaigns this May. There is no coherent programme for governance that we can vote for, and which electors in Cologne, Cardiff and Caen may understand and judge in the same way.

That is why the British Parliament is a legitimate democratic institution, fit to legislate for the whole British population, and the European Parliament is not.

Originally Posted by jfman

Majority of the public want a second referendum.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8857211.html

1500 of those surveyed is not a majority of anything.

All these polls show is that they don't work for something very complex, that said, only one poll matters, the one taken in 2016 that said the UK wants to leave the EU, so lets get on with leaving.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ok, so the democratically elected parliament and council do get to approve directives from the commission and do get to send back directives to the commission and our Council representation has an effect. All good then!

The House of Commons does not have to be dictated as to what it can legislate by Civil Servants.

You need to take your blindfolds off. The EU is not a democracy. Not in any sense of the word.

Why are so many people, including you, are blind to this?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mick

1500 of those surveyed is not a majority of anything.

All these polls show is that they don't work for something very complex, that said, only one poll matters, the one taken in 2016 that said the UK wants to leave the EU, so lets get on with leaving.

The poll is a simple choice of yes or no, I fail to see the complexity.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Sarcasm sometimes works - as on this occasion it did.

Ah, if only it was sarcasm ..

---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Only come across as patronising as he’s trying to educate a blissfully ignorant person.

Jon is more informed on this subject than most. Your assumption of his ignorance betrays an unwillingness to listen.

---------- Post added at 23:13 ---------- Previous post was at 23:11 ----------

Some comparisons to add to the debate;

Amazing what you can do with deliberate choice of wording isn’t it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Jon is more informed on this subject than most.

The last few posts would seem to counter that assertion.

From Geoffrey Cox, the (very) Pro-Brexit Attorney General yesterday

“We have under-estimated its complexity. We are unpicking 45 years of in-depth integration. This needed to be done with very great care. It needs a hard-headed understanding of realities”

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

The last few posts would seem to counter that assertion.

Jon can only be held responsible for his own posts, not the last few posts.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

From Geoffrey Cox, the (very) Pro-Brexit Attorney General yesterday

Penny's starting to drop as strong pro-Brexiters realise that no-deal is not an option at the moment and their skins have been saved by Parliament.

[Carth]

Surely you mean those pro-Brexiters in office who have struggled to find another gravy train to ride if the present one finishes

What is missing is civility in the discussion. Not everyone on either side is rabid about their decision and some are allowed to have doubts and possibly to change their mind and their stance without being attacked for doing so as the last I knew we are still a democracy.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

What is missing is civility in the discussion. Not everyone on either side is rabid about their decision and some are allowed to have doubts and possibly to change their mind and their stance without being attacked for doing so as the last I knew we are still a democracy.

That’s usually how discussions framed principally in ideology go. Uncompromising.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

What is missing is civility in the discussion. Not everyone on either side is rabid about their decision and some are allowed to have doubts and possibly to change their mind and their stance without being attacked for doing so as the last I knew we are still a democracy.