Britain outside the EU

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Exactly (the highlighted bit only). The author was reflecting on VdL's remarks to the Parliament which included the following remarks - no mention of friendship anywhere: https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/27/...ean-parliament



Quite simply they don't do friendship. Many other important countries do.

To be fair, your team agreed the deal and signed us up to the deal. Maybe they should have read and understood what they were committing us to. It's a bit late now to be complaining about some of the terms, it should have been pretty obvious that the EU would look to add clauses with teeth especially when dealing with a government that's got form for willingness to change the rules post agreement. You reap the seeds you sow.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

To be fair, your team agreed the deal and signed us up to the deal. Maybe they should have read and understood what they were committing us to. It's a bit late now to be complaining about some of the terms, it should have been pretty obvious that the EU would look to add clauses with teeth especially when dealing with a government that's got form for willingness to change the rules post agreement. You reap the seeds you sow.

Yes - your point is absolutely valid in respect of signing up to this deal at all and reaping the sown seeds. I would have preferred to simply drop out and let waters settle bit by bit and as mutual opportunities arise.

Doesn't alter my underlying point - the EU doesn't do friendship; it wants control over us, which is why the UK left the EU. Remainers at the time did not see the EU in the light now being shone.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Exactly (the highlighted bit only). The author was reflecting on VdL's remarks to the Parliament which included the following remarks - no mention of friendship anywhere: https://www.euronews.com/2021/04/27/...ean-parliament



Quite simply they don't do friendship. Many other important countries do.

Charles De Gaulle - No countries have friends, only interests.

I don't understand why the author of that article is so incensed at was so obviously going to happen. We leave, we are treated as a third country. It's literally what people voted for wasn't it, or was there an expectation that we would be treated differently from other third countries? If so, that's what trade deals are for.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I don't understand why the author of that article is so incensed at was so obviously going to happen. We leave, we are treated as a third country. It's literally what people voted for wasn't it, or was there an expectation that we would be treated differently from other third countries? If so, that's what trade deals are for.

My reading of the (excellent) article was that the author was encouraging the Guvmin to toughen up on the EU now that the treaty has been ratified, particularly as regards invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol because of deterioration in civil circumstances.

My underlying, and resentful feeling is that the EU is revelling in catching us out and can't wait to take us to court (as they're already doing due to the necessary extension of the NI grace period).

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I don't understand why the author of that article is so incensed at was so obviously going to happen. We leave, we are treated as a third country. It's literally what people voted for wasn't it, or was there an expectation that we would be treated differently from other third countries? If so, that's what trade deals are for.

This tacky article must surely be an embarrassment to other Leave voters who were surely better informed than the author of this op ed. He's got buyer's remorse written all over him.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

This tacky article must surely be an embarrassment to other Leave voters who were surely better informed than the author of this op ed. He's got buyer's remorse written all over him.

I'd actually read it as 'Remainers Apoplexy' personally

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

My reading of the (excellent) article was that the author was encouraging the Guvmin to toughen up on the EU now that the treaty has been ratified, particularly as regards invoking Article 16 of the NI Protocol because of deterioration in civil circumstances.

My underlying, and resentful feeling is that the EU is revelling in catching us out and can't wait to take us to court (as they're already doing due to the necessary extension of the NI grace period).

Sure, the rules are there in the agreement to invoke articles such as Article 16. Article 16 of course does not suspend the agreement and needs to be time limited. As the agreement is not suspended upon invocation of Article 16, the other side can announce proportionate rebalancing measures after a month which could be fun...

Article 16 is designed to cover ‘economic, societal or environmental difficulties’ and the question would be what ‘economic, societal or environmental difficulties’ have occurred that could not have been foreseen before the agreement was put in place. If it's the general principles of the agreement as it is right now, then that surely is a failure to understand what was signed isn't it?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Blog post from London School of Economics on why Article 16 might not be as helpful as angry Telegraph editors think it is - https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2...-no-quick-fix/

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Sure, the rules are there in the agreement to invoke articles such as Article 16. Article 16 of course does not suspend the agreement and needs to be time limited. As the agreement is not suspended upon invocation of Article 16, the other side can announce proportionate rebalancing measures after a month which could be fun...

Article 16 is designed to cover ‘economic, societal or environmental difficulties’ and the question would be what ‘economic, societal or environmental difficulties’ have occurred that could not have been foreseen before the agreement was put in place. If it's the general principles of the agreement as it is right now, then that surely is a failure to understand what was signed isn't it?

I think the problem boils down to all the leavers who bought him to 'the easiest deal in history' mantra. Now reality is slapping them in the face they're looking for someone (or something) to blame for their naivety.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

This tacky article must surely be an embarrassment to other Leave voters who were surely better informed than the author of this op ed. He's got buyer's remorse written all over him.

Only a gloating Remainer could say that. I'm challenging the Remainers to recognise that the EU is acting out of spite by watching the letter of the treaty rather than help sort out the issues.

[Carth]

It seems as though the only ones who believed 'the easiest deal in history' mantra, are the ones now writing articles suggesting it wasn't.

As for those of us living in the real world, there was never a doubt that things wouldn't go exactly according to plan(s) . . . but we still voted out

Incidentally, I'm still waiting to be hit by the many 'disastrous misfortunes' of Brexit . . maybe I'm just lucky eh

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

I think the problem boils down to all the leavers who bought him to 'the easiest deal in history' mantra. Now reality is slapping them in the face they're looking for someone (or something) to blame for their naivety.

Exactly.

---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Only a gloating Remainer could say that. I'm challenging the Remainers to recognise that the EU is acting out of spite by watching the letter of the treaty rather than help sort out the issues.

As a patriotic Brit, I'm certainly not gloating. I don't want to see the UK disintegrating or rising up the global corruption league table or our exporters struggling. I hope the UK can overcome these issues by not ignoring them.

The EU has given the UK lots of extensions to get its act together over the admin needed for the island of Ireland. It's held many meetings with the UK. Not the actions of a body acting out of spite. But this has been advised before.

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

Brexit bonus has become a Brexit disaster, says company that supplies 10% of fish for our great chippies.

Maybe it's Norway acting out of spite and not helping us sort out the issues? Will Rees-Mogg stand up in Parliament and tell the House that Norway's fish are happier due to Brexit as we can't catch them anymore?

Brexit: Anger over government's failure to get Norway fishing deal

Fishing crews have been "disastrously let down" by the government's failure to reach a deal with Norway, UK Fisheries chief executive has said.

UK fleets will not have access to Norway's sub-Arctic seas, following the breakdown of UK-Norway negotiations.

One trawler, which catches 10% of fish sold in chip shops, will be tied up for a year following the collapse in talks.

The government said it had offered a "fair deal" but the two sides were "too far apart" to agree a deal this year.

Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said fishing communities had been "betrayed by the prime minister".

The UK's departure from the EU means it is no longer part of the European Common Fisheries Policy and instead negotiates with Norway directly over fishing catches.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56940914

UK fishing industry furious over failure to strike Norway deal

Agriculture department faces backlash after collapse of talks to secure access to waters that are a key source of cod

Jane Sandell, the chief executive of UK Fisheries, which owns the super trawler Kirkella that catches around 10 per cent of all the fish sold in UK chip shops, said the failure to strike a deal was a “very black day for Britain” and a “national embarrassment”.

The company said it had invested approximately £180m over the past 20 years in the Humberside fishing industry, with further investment of up to £100m planned, and that the lack of a deal imperilled the livelihoods of approximately 100 crewmen employed in and around Hull, on England’s north-east coast.

“[Environment secretary] George Eustice owes our crews and the Humberside region an explanation as to why Defra was unable even to maintain the rights we have had to fish in Norwegian waters for decades, never mind land the boasts of a ‘Brexit Bonus’, which has turned to disaster,” she said in a statement.

Google the headline or see https://www.ft.com/content/acb9db43-...7-94febd6fa3a8

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Exactly.

---------- Post added at 16:44 ---------- Previous post was at 16:36 ----------


As a patriotic Brit, I'm certainly not gloating. I don't want to see the UK disintegrating or rising up the global corruption league table or our exporters struggling. I hope the UK can overcome these issues by not ignoring them.

The EU has given the UK lots of extensions to get its act together over the admin needed for the island of Ireland. It's held many meetings with the UK. Not the actions of a body acting out of spite. But this has been advised before.

I'll turn that into VdL speak:

"We have given the UK lots of extensions to get its act together over the admin needed for the island of Ireland. We have held many meetings with the UK".

Patriotic Brit, eh?

PS: Norway is not in the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

PS: Norway is not in the EU.

I'm not aware that anyone has claimed that it was, unless you're correcting a previous post. But the UK's agreement for access to Norwegian waters ended due to Brexit.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I'm not aware that anyone has claimed that it was, unless you're correcting a previous post. But the UK's agreement for access to Norwegian waters ended due to Brexit.

Yes - but Norway is a diversion from the point I'm making, which is about the EU.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Yes - but Norway is a diversion from the point I'm making, which is about the EU.

Sorry - the forum has put Norway in the same post as my response to you as it was posted within a similar time frame. It's not meant to form part of my reply to you, but I think others and I have responded comprehensively to you about that opinion piece.