27-03-2019, 13:10
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#661
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,032
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
It will make things better. A well informed electorate will make a choice based on facts and not speculation. Said referendum will either affirm the first result or overwhelmingly reject it. .
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I don't believe they are the only two outcomes.
You forgot, slightly reject it. If Remain won by the same margin as Leave won last time, or less. Or if Leave won by an even smaller majority, it solves and decides nothing.
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The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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27-03-2019, 13:55
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#662
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,342
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
I don't believe they are the only two outcomes.
You forgot, slightly reject it. If Remain won by the same margin as Leave won last time, or less. Or if Leave won by an even smaller majority, it solves and decides nothing.
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Then we continue in limbo. Eventually the people will have to conclusively settle the argument. If people concluded by majority to vote for no deal, May’s deal, Norway or some other definition of leave the weaknesses of the leave argument at present would be gone.
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27-03-2019, 15:10
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#663
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Brexit (New).
The problem (for some) with any kind of second referendum/vote is that it will split the 'leavers' votes, therefore leaving 'remain' well out in front
Remain have one choice . . to remain as is.
Leave can be offered multiple choices on how to leave, and there's no way 17 million will all choose the same one.
IMO we will be going through multiple brexit choices until somebody is brave enough to pull the plug and we leave with no deal. Only then can the politicians have a clear path in front of them instead of wandering up and down blind alleys
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27-03-2019, 15:17
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#664
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
Services: Many
Posts: 4,605
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
The problem (for some) with any kind of second referendum/vote is that it will split the 'leavers' votes, therefore leaving 'remain' well out in front
Remain have one choice . . to remain as is.
Leave can be offered multiple choices on how to leave, and there's no way 17 million will all choose the same one.
IMO we will be going through multiple brexit choices until somebody is brave enough to pull the plug and we leave with no deal. Only then can the politicians have a clear path in front of them instead of wandering up and down blind alleys
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remain requires 65/70% to win
leave with mays/leave no deal requires 65/70% combined to win
If leave with mays deal/leave no deal wins then the higher percentage of the two options is the route taken.
I could not argue with that and would accept to leave.
__________________
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27-03-2019, 15:24
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#665
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees
remain requires 65/70% to win
leave with mays/leave no deal requires 65/70% combined to win
If leave with mays deal/leave no deal wins then the higher percentage of the two options is the route taken.
I could not argue with that and would accept to leave.
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oh if only it was that easy
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27-03-2019, 15:44
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#666
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
Services: Many
Posts: 4,605
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth
oh if only it was that easy
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It is a tad simplistic
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Nerves of steel, heart of gold, knob of butter......
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27-03-2019, 15:48
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#667
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,032
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
Then we continue in limbo. Eventually the people will have to conclusively settle the argument.
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But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.
Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.
Quote:
If people concluded by majority to vote for no deal, May’s deal, Norway or some other definition of leave the weaknesses of the leave argument at present would be gone.
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Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?
__________________
The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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27-03-2019, 15:59
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#668
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vox populi vox dei
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the last resort
Services: every thing
Posts: 13,739
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.
Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.
Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?
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That was the wrong people speaking the wrong answer.
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To be or not to be, woke is the question Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer. The slings and arrows of outrageous wokedome, Or to take arms against a sea of wokies. And by opposing end them.
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27-03-2019, 16:14
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#669
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067
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Middlesbrough
Age: 48
Services: Many
Posts: 4,605
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.
Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.
Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?
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So, here's the problem with that statement and again we go back to the crux of the issue
There was no definition of what leave meant, and leave means different things to different leave voters. This is not the fault of those who voted to leave, it's the fault of the government for not phrasing the question with enough detail.
__________________
Nerves of steel, heart of gold, knob of butter......
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27-03-2019, 16:22
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#670
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,342
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
But you keep telling me that Parliament is sovereign, and that they can do whatever they want regardless of what the people say. How come you now put it back to the people to sort out. When they already spoke clearly first time around.
Parliament should have enacted the will of the people first time around.
Are you saying we should a referendum of indicative votes?
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Parliament is sovereign. However, following a second referendum to leave there would be no room for MPs to manoeuvre. The people have spoken clearly, with full knowledge there would be no unicorn Brexit.
If Parliament can’t make a decision then it has to go back to the people. Self serving politicians don’t want blame.
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27-03-2019, 17:05
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#671
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,032
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
Parliament is sovereign. However, following a second referendum to leave there would be no room for MPs to manoeuvre. The people have spoken clearly, with full knowledge there would be no unicorn Brexit.
If Parliament can’t make a decision then it has to go back to the people. Self serving politicians don’t want blame.
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What if the people can't make a decision?
What margin of victory would be seen as acceptable.
What if it was
17,000,001 Remain
and
17,000,000 Leave
Do we Remain, all's fair, accept the result and bugger off.
and vice versa, Leave vote confirmed beyond question?
This is why a second referendum would be an absolute disaster. It has be sorted out now.
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The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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27-03-2019, 17:30
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#672
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Still alive and fighting
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the land of beyond and beyond.
Services: XL BB, 3 360 boxes , XL TV.
Posts: 56,308
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Re: Brexit (New).
Theresa May tells Tory MPs she will resign before next phase of Brexit talks.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...quit-live-news
__________________
“The only lesson you can learn from history is that it repeats itself”
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27-03-2019, 18:28
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#673
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,231
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone
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Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.
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27-03-2019, 18:34
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#674
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Jarrow Tyne & Wear
Services: V.I.P 120 tivo and v+
Posts: 5,792
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1
Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.
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exactly Bercow said again got to be significant change and everyone know it exact same deal
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27-03-2019, 18:35
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#675
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Still alive and fighting
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the land of beyond and beyond.
Services: XL BB, 3 360 boxes , XL TV.
Posts: 56,308
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1
Problem with that is that it's conditional on her deal being voted through. At the moment, MPs may not even get a chance to even vote on it.
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Indeed the deal has to go through but if it does then there will be a Conservative leadership contest to elect a new leader to replace her and then there will probably be a General Election after that.
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“The only lesson you can learn from history is that it repeats itself”
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