Election 2019, Week 1

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Reading the last couple of pages in this thread, it really brought to mind part of the sermon at today’s Remembrance Service at my local church.

"It’s good to disagree, challenge, argue, and if necessary, fight what what you believe is right, but when you demonise and hate your opposition, you are on the road to becoming as bad as those you oppose who use those tactics".

People, of course, are free to disagree...

My service never mentioned the other feature of this thread: Obduracy. But then that wasn’t on the ballot paper either.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by jfman

I didn't - there's no need to be obtuse, ignorant nor inflammatory with your comments. You know fine well the manifesto commitment to which I refer, and that the Conservative government drastically failed.

Given how 'freedom of movement' is derided because of our limited resources on an island you'd think the inability of a government to build 200 000 homes promised would be noteworthy. However, apparently not.

I'm sorry if you think I was being 'obtuse, ignorant and/or inflammatory'.
I've no real idea about the manifesto commitment to which you refer, although I do vaguely recall promises of more housing by somebody in the past. I just thought that seeing houses built meant that . . well, houses were being built.

Again, apologies if I don't see things with the level of detail and information you yourself see

I think thats enough talk about housing, time to move on.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

My service never mentioned the other feature of this thread: Obduracy. But then that wasn’t on the ballot paper either.

Oh, the irony...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

Actually there are many things l disagree with jfman over but thats utterly irrelevent as it was a nice try at your usual deflection tactics but you ain't going to get away that easy OB as we the undecided voters have every right to know each of the major parties spending figures and as such the Conservatives as witnessed this morning on TV have refused to come out with theirs.

So what? They said it would be explained in the manifesto.

Judging by Labour's fury at the prospect of Civil Servants calculating the cost of their manifesto, I think your concern should be aimed in a different direction.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Marxism
anti-Semitism
Money printing machine
The IRA

All absolute hyperbolic nonsense to deflect from 10 years of failure from the Tories. The Tories know that in 2017 the Labour message offered people a compelling alternative vision from the absolute misery that the Conservatives are blighting many of our communities with, one generation on from their hero Margaret Thatcher doing the same to those communities. We're the fifth richest economy in the world with increasing inequality and no plan to resolve it because frankly those most affected aren't on the radar of your Moggs of this world.

The drum of nationalism will only take you so far. You have to tell people how you are going to make their lives better. A message absolutely absent from the Tories.

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah

Look everyone’s views on this forum are firmly entrenched, so it doesn’t make any difference what argument you make, I make, anyone makes. No one’s on the fence here.

Use your time wisely and go knocking on doors for Jeremy, go find a few floating voters to impress.

I’m bored of the whole thing, I wish the election was tomorrow. Another 4 weeks of this feels like purgatory.
I’m

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

My service never mentioned the other feature of this thread: Obduracy. But then that wasn’t on the ballot paper either.

You have to vote in church now?! What for?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah

Look everyone’s views on this forum are firmly entrenched, so it doesn’t make any difference what argument you make, I make, anyone makes. No one’s on the fence here.

Use your time wisely and go knocking on doors for Jeremy, go find a few floating voters to impress.

I’m bored of the whole thing, I wish the election was tomorrow. Another 4 weeks of this feels like purgatory.
I’m

Quite right. The Tories will struggle to survive in front if they have another four weeks like the last one.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

Quite right. The Tories will struggle to survive in front if they have another four weeks like the last one.

The Conservatives don't look like they are struggling to me. Boris is way out front, and the more his opponents throw the kitchen sink at him, the more popular he will become.

The UK population is not prepared to accept a Communist government and so Corbyn will poll disastrously. He is not only going to lose votes to the Conservatives, Lib Dems and Brexit, but many traditional Labour supporters will stay at home.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The Conservatives don't look like they are struggling to me. Boris is way out front, and the more his opponents throw the kitchen sink at him, the more popular he will become.

The UK population is not prepared to accept a Communist government and so Corbyn will poll disastrously. He is not only going to lose votes to the Conservatives, Lib Dems and Brexit, but many traditional Labour supporters will stay at home.

Labour up in all the polls today OB, and over a.month to go

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

A laughable article. Unsubstantiated figures, antisemitism and the IRA all get an outing in there.

Might as well have a front page headline “LOOK! A SQUIRREL!”.

Interestingly the national debt is up £1 TRILLION since the the coalition and we’ve nothing to show for it.

So which of the spending plans have been denied by Labour? To say nothing of the impact of those and other plans. Eg if people think the high street is dead now, just wait and see what effect Labour would have, and indeed have had.



The anti-Semitism and support for the IRA and other certain groups of terrorists really cannot be denied.


Try turning off £158bn of annual borrowing overnight. Just imagine what the public debt would've been like if Labour had won. From 2011/12 to 2018/19 the debt rose from £1,236bn to £1,773bn. That a lot less than a trillion rise.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The Conservatives don't look like they are struggling to me. Boris is way out front, and the more his opponents throw the kitchen sink at him, the more popular he will become.

The UK population is not prepared to accept a Communist government and so Corbyn will poll disastrously. He is not only going to lose votes to the Conservatives, Lib Dems and Brexit, but many traditional Labour supporters will stay at home.

That's because you are suffering from confirmation bias Old Boy. You are simply seeing what you want to see regardless of other evidence available.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:59 ----------

Originally Posted by nomadking

So which of the spending plans have been denied by Labour? To say nothing of the impact of those and other plans. Eg if people think the high street is dead now, just wait and see what effect Labour would have, and indeed have had.

The anti-Semitism and support for the IRA and other certain groups of terrorists really cannot be denied.

The plans haven't been denied the figures have. Drummed up by a Tory on the back of a cigarette paper, ignoring the economic benefits of Labour action in the economy

IRA and anti-Semitism the same tired old flawed allegations that have never been proven and never will. Yawn.

Try turning off £158bn of annual borrowing overnight. Just imagine what the public debt would've been like if Labour had won. From 2011/12 to 2018/19 the debt rose from £1,236bn to £1,773bn. That a lot less than a trillion rise.

The coalition came to power before 2011/12. You must surely tire of making up arguments against points nobody actually made rather than conceding that I'm right.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

That's because you are suffering from confirmation bias Old Boy. You are simply seeing what you want to see regardless of other evidence available.

---------- Post added at 20:03 ---------- Previous post was at 19:59 ----------

The plans haven't been denied the figures have. Drummed up by a Tory on the back of a cigarette paper, ignoring the economic benefits of Labour action in the economy

IRA and anti-Semitism the same tired old flawed allegations that have never been proven and never will. Yawn.

The coalition came to power before 2011/12. You must surely tire of making up arguments against points nobody actually made rather than conceding that I'm right.

The 2010/11 spending plans were drawn up by Labour. Was the deficit for 2010/2011 in excess of £500bn? Of course not. Now add in the over £100bn of the buy now, pay later of PFI. People bleat enough about austerity as it is. Just think what it would've taken to overnight reverse an annual £100+bn deficit. The ongoing spending commitments(eg tax credits) were set by Labour.


You mean videos, speeches, and appearances at events aren't proof?


Apart from a small blip in 2007, current house building is higher than every year of the previous Labour government.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The 2010/11 spending plans were drawn up by Labour. Was the deficit for 2010/2011 in excess of £500bn? Of course not. Now add in the over £100bn of the buy now, pay later of PFI. People bleat enough about austerity as it is. Just think what it would've taken to overnight reverse an annual £100+bn deficit. The ongoing spending commitments(eg tax credits) were set by Labour.

You mean videos, speeches, and appearances at events aren't proof?

I’ve saw the late Ian Paisley appear in the same room as Martin McGuinness, a man accused of being in the IRA, does that make him a supporter? Of course not.

Please, find me these videos and speeches of Corbyn (Or McDonnell) advocating armed violence from Irish Republicans to further the cause of a united Ireland.

Apart from a small blip in 2007, current house building is higher than every year of the previous Labour government.

Further deflection from the fact the manifesto commitment was for 200 000 starter homes. None built to date.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’ve saw the late Ian Paisley appear in the same room as Martin McGuinness, a man accused of being in the IRA, does that make him a supporter? Of course not.

Please, find me these videos and speeches of Corbyn (Or McDonnell) advocating armed violence from Irish Republicans to further the cause of a Ireland.

Further deflection from the fact the manifesto commitment was for 200 000 starter homes. None built to date.

1) the commitment was for a particular specification.
2) The specification couldn't be defined because of the sabotaging of Parliament by Labour and the Remainers. All activity had to used to try and stop that sabotage.
3) For the past few years, around 150,000 homes/year have been built.
4) since 2010, the social sector building has been more than any year of the previous Labour government.
Link

Labour MP John McDonnell has admitted that his previous comments in support of the IRA helped foster religious division.
...
In the past Mr McDonnell has praised the IRA's bravery.
“The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA. Because of the bravery of the IRA and people like Bobby Sands, we now have a peace process,” he once said.
He has since apologised for the comments.
Mr McDonnell also hung a plaque commemorating IRA and INLA hunger strikers, including Bobby Sands, in his London constituency office.
He accepted he had been "part of the problem" in the past.

Link

John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, has apologised “from the bottom of my heart” for suggesting in 2003 that the IRA should be honoured for the bombings which brought the British government “to the negotiating table” during the Northern Ireland peace process.

Just a few more examples in this link.

Link

Jeremy Corbyn has said he was present but not involved at a wreath-laying ceremony for members of the group that carried out the Munich Olympics massacre, who were killed in Paris in 1992....
Mr Corbyn wrote about the trip shortly afterwards in the Morning Star in October 2014. He said: “Wreaths were laid to mark the 1985 bombing of the PLO HQ and on the graves of others killed by Mossad agents in Paris in 1991.”

They're all examples of active support.


Consider this, if Labour's spending had been such that they they left a deficit of zero, would the post-2010 government have added to the debt? The post-2010 deficit went down by a total of £600bn from the 2009/2010 borrowing level. That's an indication of how much extra, continuing with the full level of Labour's spending would have added.