Election 2019, Week 1

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Hugh

It's an aspiration...

Yes, I aspire to open the batting for England , but time's running out...

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

Have they brought down the national debt? No. Are we still running a defect? Yes.

The national debt has never been higher than it’s current position, and the Brexit mess isn’t helping.

So the Tories have not achieved either objective. Austerity is “coming to an end” because in 2017 the Tories got slaughtered on the doorsteps finding people were more concerned about public services and living standards falling.

Are you suggesting that spending should have been turned off so completely, that overnight there was no deficit?
Labour added around £200bn of debt before the crash, and over £270bn in the 2 years afterwards. That's without PFI and without the banking system.
Welfare spending alone rose by more than 33%(£20bn) between 2002 and 2006.

That is the central problem, you cannot turn off that sort of spending overnight. The impact carries on for years.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Are you suggesting that spending should have been turned off so completely, that overnight there was no deficit?
Labour added around £200bn of debt before the crash, and over £270bn in the 2 years afterwards. That's without PFI and without the banking system.
Welfare spending alone rose by more than 33%(£20bn) between 2002 and 2006.

That is the central problem, you cannot turn off that sort of spending overnight. The impact carries on for years.

It’s been nearly ten years. By that rationale everything that happened in the period you describe is a hangover for the Major years. Which, as you know, is an utterly ridiculous notion.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Yes, I aspire to open the batting for England , but time's running out...

Don’t give up on yourself.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s been nearly ten years. By that rationale everything that happened in the period you describe is a hangover for the Major years. Which, as you know, is an utterly ridiculous notion.

The policies of the Major years resulted in Labour starting off by continuing to reduce the deficit and paying off the national debt. Until they ripped those spending plans apart and went on a big spending splurge, eg extra £20bn/year on Welfare by 2006. Before 2002 and the ripping up of spending plans, welfare spending was either going down or remaining fairly stable. It can't have been unemployment related because at that time the economy was supposedly doing well.


Just look at the graphs.
Spending on tax credits alone shot up after 2002. The local Housing Allowance rules of 2008, were too generous, and allowed landlords to up their rents and know Housing Benefit would still cover it. The HB spending shot up after 2008.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by nomadking

The policies of the Major years resulted in Labour starting off by continuing to reduce the deficit and paying off the national debt. Until they ripped those spending plans apart and went on a big spending splurge, eg extra £20bn/year on Welfare by 2006. Before 2002 and the ripping up of spending plans, welfare spending was either going down or remaining fairly stable. It can't have been unemployment related because at that time the economy was supposedly doing well.

Just look at the graphs.
Spending on tax credits alone shot up after 2002. The local Housing Allowance rules of 2008, were too generous, and allowed landlords to up their rents and know Housing Benefit would still cover it. The HB spending shot up after 2008.

So which is it, is there a ten year delay or isn’t there? Or is it just blame Labour at all costs?

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Or is it just blame Labour at all costs?

Yes of course it is. Because Labour, in their present form, are dangerous for this country.

I hope they are beaten convincingly, and hopefully an opposition may evolve that offers a credible choice for the nation.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Yes of course it is. Because Labour, in their present form, are dangerous for this country.

I hope they are beaten convincingly, and hopefully an opposition may evolve that offers a credible choice for the nation.

Dangerous for the country??? That’s quite laughable really. There’s not a single policy that can credibly be described as a danger to the UK. I’m not even convinced you’d support a “credible” opposition anyway. Tories or Blairite Tories. It’s all the same.

The propaganda machine is in full force so the 1% must be starting to worry.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Dangerous for the country??? That’s quite laughable really.

.

A Labour Government is laughable.

There’s not a single policy that can credibly be described as a danger to the UK.

It’s not the policies as such ( although the public ownership issue we have discussed on here previously, that you failed to defend/Justify is one) but the people behind them.

It like having Jimmy Saville promise he’ll look after your kids, and you say....” well he seems nice”

I’m not even convinced you’d support a “credible” opposition anyway. Tories or Blairite Tories. It’s all the same.

intend to steer away from Marxists, communists ....you know..as a matter of principle

the 1% must be starting to worry

I’m not part of the 1%, I know you didn’t ask but i’ll Give a quick history of Pierre.

I’m 49. I grew up in Liverpool in the 80’s under Mrs Thatch. My Father was probably employed 50% of the time. A welder at Cammell Laird’s originally.

We were on benefits, we used to cheat the gas and electric, at times it was very tough.

Any aged 16 I was told that I had better start bringing some money in as my family allowance had now ended. So I did. I got a job, and went to college and studied and worked at the same time. Then went to Uni and worked. I’ve never been unemployed, never as an adult claimed any benefit. Now have a very good lifestyle.p, and am in the higher tax bracket.

But according to Labour, i’m The enemy. In the politics of envy i’m Doing too well. How dare I send my kids to a private school or a tutor ( although Corbyn is privately educated, and Abbot sent her kids to private school). I came from a Labour heartland, and have voted Labour, but not for these.

I believe in a safety net, I believe in welfare. But as an stop gap not a lifestyle.

I’m working class and always will be. Corbyn does not represent the true working class.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by jfman

So which is it, is there a ten year delay or isn’t there? Or is it just blame Labour at all costs?

The annual overspending by Labour couldn't be stopped completely overnight. Do you massively reduce tax credits overnight? That massive pre-crash spending cannot be denied. Some of the adjustments didn't start until 2013, and then it wasn't an overnight change for everybody. It took time for people to be subject to any new rules. With HB, the damage had been done, All that could be done is to limit further big increases in rents, that Labour's LHA rules had allowed. Then PFI repayments also started to kick in, adding to costs.


The deficit has gone down consistently since 2010, whereas it consistently went up from 2001 until 2010.

Originally Posted by nomadking

The annual overspending by Labour couldn't be stopped completely overnight. Do you massively reduce tax credits overnight? That massive pre-crash spending cannot be denied. Some of the adjustments didn't start until 2013, and then it wasn't an overnight change for everybody. It took time for people to be subject to any new rules. With HB, the damage had been done, All that could be done is to limit further big increases in rents, that Labour's LHA rules had allowed. Then PFI repayments also started to kick in, adding to costs.


The deficit has gone down consistently since 2010, whereas it consistently went up from 2001 until 2010.

Your assertion is factually incorrect.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Your assertion is factually incorrect.

OK it went down in 3 of those years but spiked significantly in 2008/9 and then has consistently reduced.

Originally Posted by pip08456

OK it went down in 3 of those years but spiked significantly in 2008/9 and then has consistently reduced.

Except for 2012-13...

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Except for 2012-13...

Good to know you can still google for graphs that contradict your first one.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

You literally don’t pay off a deficit. As we’ve always suspected you are just banding about terms you don’t fully understand.

You pay off debt.

Deficit is the difference between income and expenditure.

I know what a deficit is, jfman. The point I'm making is that the difference between income and expenditure was in seriously negative figures and that money had to be made up.