Brexit (Old)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Chris

They were referring to anything and everything that in their view protects and defends the European project.

Don’t forget that the project is the main means by which Germany has sought to make good its heinous crimes against humanity in the 20th century and to prove its worthy of inclusion in international affairs. The EU, as the project is currently called, is genuinely dear to their hearts and I don’t doubt that our leaving it causes them genuine pain.

None of that is to say that the EU will, in the long run, be the great unifying, peace-defining project the Germans imagine it to be. We must not forget that the EU as presently designed is the very reason that one of its biggest, richest and most globally influential members (and a major net contributor to the budget) has opted to leave.

It’s disappointing that the EU’s response to this is, as usual, “more Europe!” rather than honest reflection on how it came to this.

The world has moved on since 1945. Surely, the crimes committed by some before 1945 have no bearing on the current elected rulers of Germany. In terms of "more Europe" that was a UK initiative to act as a buffer against Russia. Hence one reason why Russia was keen on Brexit.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The world has moved on since 1945. Surely, the crimes committed by some before 1945 have no bearing on the current elected rulers of Germany

And yet on this thread, leave supporters have been branded Empire lovers, and the UK’s colonial past is consistently thrown back in our faces. So obviously the world hasn’t moved on when it comes the UK.

We had our dark moments but i don’t believe genocide was one of them.

. In terms of "more Europe" that was a UK initiative to act as a buffer against Russia. Hence one reason why Russia was keen on Brexit.

A UK initiative? I assume you have the detail to back that up?

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Pierre

And yet on this thread, leave supporters have been branded Empire lovers, and the UK’s colonial past is consistently thrown back in our faces. So obviously the world hasn’t moved on when it comes the UK.

We had our dark moments but i don’t believe genocide was one of them.

You know 4 million Indians died in the 1943 famine, partly because we diverted so much of their food to our war effort and iirc all Churchill said was "it's their own fault for breeding like rabbits", the Boer concentration camps were a pretty dark period to

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Hugh

I have doubts about this ‘story’.

I have worked in many, many places, and I have never seen a security reader set at eye level - most readers are set between 900mm and 1050mm from the floor (as stated in BS8300:2009), to cater for those with disabilities; I have worked with disability advisors to ensure buildings, IT Services, and IT systems are appropriately accessible, and never fitted two separate readers.

I'm going back to the 1990's when I was a Local Government Officer; the building manager did it as a dwarf worked in the office, but others found it difficult to use.

Quoting measurements for this really is a new height of pedantism, but in the end you have two choices as to whether you believe it or not.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

I shouldn’t but I laughed out loud at that.

A woman suffering from dwarfism worked in the office, so I guess he was taking her needs into consideration and future proofing should any wheelchair using staff join the workforce.

---------- Post added at 10:40 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

They were referring to anything and everything that in their view protects and defends the European project.

Don’t forget that the project is the main means by which Germany has sought to make good its heinous crimes against humanity in the 20th century and to prove its worthy of inclusion in international affairs. The EU, as the project is currently called, is genuinely dear to their hearts and I don’t doubt that our leaving it causes them genuine pain.

None of that is to say that the EU will, in the long run, be the great unifying, peace-defining project the Germans imagine it to be. We must not forget that the EU as presently designed is the very reason that one of its biggest, richest and most globally influential members (and a major net contributor to the budget) has opted to leave.

It’s disappointing that the EU’s response to this is, as usual, “more Europe!” rather than honest reflection on how it came to this.

Well, I have heard it said the the existence of the EU has prevented wars because it would be very difficult to declare war on an EU partner.

How true it is in reality, I don't know.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

The world has moved on since 1945. Surely, the crimes committed by some before 1945 have no bearing on the current elected rulers of Germany. In terms of "more Europe" that was a UK initiative to act as a buffer against Russia. Hence one reason why Russia was keen on Brexit.

Nope, majority of UK electorate was keen on Brexit.

But Russia has every right to feel threatened by a power hungry and corrupted EU, trying to expand and now grow an EU Army.

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Well, I have heard it said the the existence of the EU has prevented wars because it would be very difficult to declare war on an EU partner.

How true it is in reality, I don't know.

In reality, it’s not true at all.

The military threat post 1945 was Soviet Russia. We made a Faustian deal with Stalin in order to defeat Germany that ended up with most of the nation states of Eastern Europe, and the east of partitioned Germany, becoming vassal states of the greater Russian empire. There was a very real threat that the Soviets would evangelise their communist way of life further westwards, at gunpoint, or at the very least that they would preemptively strike against the West if it looked like the Allied powers were planning to continue their own march of liberation eastwards.

For the first few years after world war 2 fatigue prevented any of this from happening. Afterwards, the existence of nuclear arms, and the NATO and Warsaw alliances that threatened reprisals for an attack on any individual member, prevented it.

The European Union is supposed to prevent another conventional conflict along the lines of the two world wars by making France and Germany co-dependent. Sadly, because that’s what the EU is for, and because there hasn’t been another world war, a great many euro-evangelists commit the post hoc logical fallacy of assuming that the EU must have been responsible.

[RichardCoulter]

Planned visit to china by the chancellor for trade talks has been cancelled as they aren't happy about his speech where he mentioned putting an aircraft carrier into the Pacific:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47264476

... which has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Please remember this is a topic-based discussion forum

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Chris

They were referring to anything and everything that in their view protects and defends the European project.

Don’t forget that the project is the main means by which Germany has sought to make good its heinous crimes against humanity in the 20th century and to prove its worthy of inclusion in international affairs. The EU, as the project is currently called, is genuinely dear to their hearts and I don’t doubt that our leaving it causes them genuine pain.

None of that is to say that the EU will, in the long run, be the great unifying, peace-defining project the Germans imagine it to be. We must not forget that the EU as presently designed is the very reason that one of its biggest, richest and most globally influential members (and a major net contributor to the budget) has opted to leave.

It’s disappointing that the EU’s response to this is, as usual, “more Europe!” rather than honest reflection on how it came to this.

Not sure I get the logic of Germany atoning for trying to dominate Europe, have a single European Army, currency, government, Foreign policy, etc, and use the EU to achieve just those very things.



The recent TV series of "Inside Europe: 10 years of turmoil" clearly demonstrated time and again, that when Germany and France say jump, you are expected to jump.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter

Planned visit to china by the chancellor for trade talks has been cancelled as they aren't happy about his speech where he mentioned putting an aircraft carrier into the Pacific:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47264476

You need to learn to read reports correctly. The Chancellor has never mentioned putting an aircraft carrier into the pacific.

The Defence secretary mentioned HMS Queen Elizabeth would be deployed there as well as the middle east and the med as part of its maiden voyage which is not a military deployment per se.

No trip to China has been announced or confirmed either.

[RichardCoulter]

Originally Posted by Chris

... which has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.

Please remember this is a topic-based discussion forum

I assumed that this was an attempt to obtain a trade deal for when we leave the EU.

---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 14:02 ----------

Originally Posted by pip08456

You need to learn to read reports correctly. The Chancellor has never mentioned putting an aircraft carrier into the pacific.

The Defence secretary mentioned HMS Queen Elizabeth would be deployed there as well as the middle east and the med as part of its maiden voyage which is not a military deployment per se.

No trip to China has been announced or confirmed either.

No, it was never officially confirmed that is true.

PIease note that I sometimes make mistakes due to cognitive issues.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu

The only saddest thing is that Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the bottle to run the Country - and l am a Labour voter.

Corbyn isn't particularly bright and couldn't run a whelk stall.

Corbyn’s first wife, Jane Chapman, told his biographer Tom Bower that she never knew him read a book in four years of marriage.
despite having all the advantages of educated parents, and private and grammar schools, he managed just two E’s at A-level and dropped out of the old North London Polytechnic, which was not an institution famed for its intellectual rigour, to put it mildly.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/...rbyn-crack-up/

To be fair, my opinion of Teresa May is even lower.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Corbyn isn't particularly bright and couldn't run a whelk stall.


https://www.spectator.co.uk/2019/02/...rbyn-crack-up/

To be fair, my opinion of Teresa May is even lower.

To be fair RR l agree with your sentiments one hundred per cent.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

Someone who could unite them but then again that is a pretty well impossible job.

I think that this is a seminal post from you, Den. Everyone seems to be criticising Theresa May but totally ignoring the almost impossible task she faces. She does not have a majority in Parliament, all other factions (the remainers, the Labour Party, the ERG...) keep laying man traps to disrupt what she is trying to achieve, and of course the EU itself.

The referendum result was to leave. It was Theresa May who put forward the idea of a withdrawal agreement as a bridge between where we are now and where we want to be. Unfortunately, certain factions have used this against her and have deliberately muddied the waters. Had she not suggested the withdrawal agreement, I am sure the process of leaving the EU without such an agreement would have just gone through!

The Brexit people voted for, when you look at it, was a hard Brexit. Theresa was the woman with a plan. That is now being used against her.

There is absolutely no-one else with the balls to see this through, as you have acknowledged, Den. Credit where credit is due, don't you think?

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I think that this is a seminal post from you, Den. Everyone seems to be criticising Theresa May but totally ignoring the almost impossible task she faces. She does not have a majority in Parliament, all other factions (the remainers, the Labour Party, the ERG...) keep laying man traps to disrupt what she is trying to achieve, and of course the EU itself.

The referendum result was to leave. It was Theresa May who put forward the idea of a withdrawal agreement as a bridge between where we are now and where we want to be. Unfortunately, certain factions have used this against her and have deliberately muddied the waters. Had she not suggested the withdrawal agreement, I am sure the process of leaving the EU without such an agreement would have just gone through!

The Brexit people voted for, when you look at it, was a hard Brexit. Theresa was the woman with a plan. That is now being used against her.

There is absolutely no-one else with the balls to see this through, as you have acknowledged, Den. Credit where credit is due, don't you think?

You sure a withdrawal agreement was May's idea OB?

Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.