Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

No offence intended here but it needs to be better written and should be published as an Open Letter.

Just my opinion and I appreciate someone has worked hard on it but the grammar is not great (and no I am not claiming to be a grammar expert, mine is pretty appalling).

Maybe some english and grammar experts could add their input and maybe refine the article into an Open Letter?

Alexander Hanff

Yes - It was hastily written - I've tidied up some of the errors, perhaps you can point out if there should be something added or changed in the article to make it have more 'humph'. If you know what I mean.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

I am 100% against biometric databases (and DNA database) because of the serious implications they have with regards civil liberties and human rights. People are often wrongly accused of a crime they did not commit, in the case of a child abduction the consequences of such an erroneous accusation could be catastrophic such as suicide or lynch mobbing (resulting in murder or severe physical harm), family breakdowns and divorce, loss of job, damage to your reputation etc.

Alexander Hanff

If you have not seen it in a while Gattaca is worth watching for a dark look at what DNA ID and DNA profiling could be like in the future.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

If you have not seen it in a while Gattaca is worth watching for a dark look at what DNA ID and DNA profiling could be like in the future.

Yeah I have seen it a couple of times, a very good prediction on how things are going I think.

I wrote another paper last year on Privacy in the 21st Century which covered a lot of issues relating to us being one of the worlds leading surveillance societies. if you look at Privacy Internationals league table published earlier this year, we have actually got worse since last years results were published. in the 2006 results we scored 1.5 in the 2007 results we scored 1.4. Interestingly enough Scotland score 2.5 in 2007.

Currently the only countries worse than the UK are Russia, China and Malaysia and we are equal 5th from bottom with Singapore. It is a sorry state of affairs.

I dread to think what next year is going to be like with the addition of CCTV networking, gait and facial recognition, biometrics (like the London transport cards, Airport Staff etc.), vehicle tracking, cell phone tracking (as added to RIPA in October 2007), NHS database etc etc etc the list is almost endless.

Alexander Hanff

[popper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceedee
So, aiui, flowrebmit is asking what if the ICO is convinced that the data VM pass to Phorm really *is* sufficiently anonymised? Ie. outside the scope of the DPA? (That's close enough in summary, flowrebmit?)

Originally Posted by flowrebmit

Erm Sort of, it's whether any elements of our IP data traffic, passing through the Phorm/ISP profiling equipment, is treated as personal data by the DPA?

Many of us will know we have, at times, personal data travelling in an unencrypted IP data stream, but does the Act cover that, or is it only concerned with personal data that we explicitly give to an organisation that they use?

CeeDee, before any personal data '*is* sufficiently anonymised' it has to be collected (there it is again) and processed, and so is always inside the scope of the DPA at that point.

and also why Phorm have seen fit to so called 'Gift' the collecting,processing,profiling, and finally anonymising kit/sw to the ISPs.

its a loophole they know they can slip through ,passing the legal/DPA responsibility to the other guy.

flowrebmit,you give your ISP (or any *companys dealing with your personal data) the right to collect, process and export out of the country all your data as a generic term/clause in your T&C, it has to be there, or they dont have any rights to deal with your data, ever.

you can send a registered DPA Notice at any time to override that generic consent term and instruct them how they may or not use your data from that point on.

IF you dont send that DPA Notice, then the ISP will try and use that generic T&C consent you have given them to justify sending any of your potentially personal data to their cash generators including Phorm Kit.

send your DPA Notice instructing them to stop collecting, processing, storing or exporting my personal data, and they must stop.

although sending such a blunt instruction means that they cant then reasonably be expected to process your data to supply and bill you for the service your paying for.

in effect, you terminate the contract and so are subject to REASONABLE termination fees.

however, if you stick to the generic, you will not collect process,store or export my data except in the very strict basic supply and billing of my contracted services, then your not proventing or restricting them from the basic supply or billing
as per contract, and so not terminating the contract, see the fine line?

and that would stop them sending your personal data (remember the EU DC IP is your PD also) to any internal Phorm kit, but its always better to expressly forbid sending to any Phorm or simular profiling electronic device to be sure.

rememeber, the DPA covers all aspects of your personal data, if you dont want your contracted company to do this or that do that to it, tell them in the official registered post DPA Notice.

and they MUST Comply (and send you by return post, the actions they took to comply with said Notice) or face a Non-Compliance action, and potentially have their DPA licence revoked and other sanctions, NO licence, No way to process your electronic bill data.

*any UK (and potentially any EU) company thats collecting processing,storing or exporting your personal data THAT IS NOT EXPLICITLY under a contract with you is stuffed.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Mick

Yes - It was hastily written - I've tidied up some of the errors, perhaps you can point out if there should be something added or changed in the article to make it have more 'humph'. If you know what I mean.

Hey and thanks for not taking offence. I have added some stuff to the article below, please feel free to correct grammar and give feedback.



Cable Forum, the largest online Virgin Media community, is now calling on Virgin Media to ditch its deal with Phorm. 95% of the customers polled in our recent survey have furiously insisted they don’t want Phorm. The storm with Phorm is refusing to go away, as more and more broadband customers learn about the serious ramifications this technology poses for privacy, human rights and civil liberties; not excluding the criminal issues surrounding this technology under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).

By now many will have heard that BT, Talk Talk and Virgin Media have all signed up with Phorm; a company which gathers profiles of customer surfing habits by installing hardware on the Internet Service Provider's (ISP) network between the customer and the Internet. This technology then intercepts all network traffic using the HTTP protocol in and out of the ISP network in order to scan web pages the customer is visiting to build a profile for the purpose of targeting advertising at them via OIX partner web sites.

This interception has been deemed as an unlawful interception by the Foundation for Information Policy Research (FIPR), a leading government advisory organisation on issues of national policy with regards to privacy. Under RIPA it has been pointed out by FIPR that informed consent must be sought from all parties in a communication before an interception is lawful; given that this would require Virgin Media to obtain consent from every single web site their customers visit (a task which would seem to be impossible in real terms) it would seem impossible for Virgin Media to not be in criminal breach of RIPA should they decide to deploy this technology. In fact many web sites already explicitly deny the interception and copying of their web sites for the purpose of profiling for marketing and advertising (examples include BBC and Amazon to name just two).

There is even the risk that by opting in to this technology (although at present it should be noted that customers will be opted in by default) customers who then initiate communication with a web site which explicitly denies consent to interception could be deemed as complicit and therefore criminally liable themselves under RIPA.

Phorm have vigorously defended and promoted their technology through the use of PR agencies, which in turn have registered on forums (including ours) and blogs to paste the PR campaign notices.

The ethical dilemmas raised on how to leverage more revenue from Internet technologies by imposing on the public's statutory rights to privacy, human rights and criminal law; are substantial and such technologies should never be deployed under circumstances where those rights are devolved. Irrespective of whether the data is anonymised or not; explicit informed consent must be sought by law and can not be undermined simply to turn a profit.

No doubt those who have complained to their ISP were told of the protection Phorm’s "Webwise" claims to offer but these "features" are mostly redundant in the present day due to existing features in most operating systems, antivirus and web browser applications; which use the same industry standard blacklists which "Webwise" are trying to promote. To the less than casual observer, it would appear that "Webwise" was bolted on to the technology merely to "sweeten the deal" and distract customers from the sinister profiling aspects of the technology.

Users have reported that when they complained to Virgin Media, they were told of the importance of online protection and the benefits that Phorm’s "Webwise" could offer, some of Virgin Media's staff allegedly did not even know about the revenue building aspects of this technology with regards to profiling and advertising.

It should also be noted that this issue has been heavily featured in the media and press over the last month, yet Virgin Media have remained silent in response to questions. Virgin Media customers feel this is unacceptable and it is a reiterating concern in the thread on our forums on this issue (a thread which has reached a staggering 2000 posts and 100 000 views). It should also concern you that our very forum was featured in the BBC "Click" television program on [need to get the date].

Even the official petition on the Prime Minister's website is approaching 10 000 signatures, which takes it far beyond the limit required for a response from the Prime Minister himself. Furthermore, many of Virgin Media's customers on our forum have written to MPs and MEPs to bring this matter to their urgent attention and requesting they initiate debate on this issue at the highest level.

The publicity has been so negative on this issue that yesterday the Guardian newspaper publicly announced they had dropped their partnership with Phorm's OIX platform with the following explanation for their decision:

"Our decision was in no small part down to the conversations we had internally about how this product sits with the values of our company."

As the busiest website of the UK press the loss of this partner is a serious blow for Phorm and their investors and should serve as a significant warning to Virgin Media as to how this technology could irrevocably damage their brand.

We feel that given the vast publicity this issue has created, the very adamant views of our users (your customers) and the lack of communications from Virgin Media to clarify matters and address your customer's genuine concerns; that we need to make you aware of these issues and attempt to illicit an official response. This open letter will also be published in the "News" section of our website as will any response we receive.


Something like that I think, open to suggestions and comments. Maybe need to include something about Sir Tim Berners-Lee?

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 16:01 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

brb need coffee

[Barkotron]

For a bit of light relief, pilfered and mildly adapted from an Ars Technica forum discussion about Do Not Call registers, years ago, I present:

The Opt-Out: A Play In One Act


Waiter: "Hi, I'll be your waiter tonight."

Customer: "Great! I'd like the soup please."

[Waiter takes out a hammer, thwaps customer on skull]

Customer: "WTF was that for?"

Waiter: "Sir, I'll stop thwapping you on the head as soon as you TELL me to stop."

Customer: "Why the hell would I have to TELL you to stop?"

[Waiter thwaps customer once more]

Customer: "GOD DAMMIT!"

Waiter: "Just say 'Stop,' sir, and this will all be over..."

YE ENDE

[Anonymouse]

I did miss something, viz. it apparently provides secure browsing via a security-modified version of Firefox stored on the Ironkey itself. Interesting...though I don't like the idea of having to pay extra for security just because I can't trust my ISP!

I might look into it, though. Does anyone here have an Ironkey?

[popper]

Originally Posted by Mick

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...ont-want-phorm

A very stern message to Virgin Media from us - its time they started taking heed and listening.

nice to see Cable Forum makeing the news rather than just posting the news, it showed up on the wire at
"Listen up now, Virgin Media - Your customers don't want Phorm" Cable Forum 13:38
very quick, so make those copy changes PDQ

user's copyright, ‘commercial piracy’ and the ’safe harbor’ question.

did the UK ISPs in question, infact give up their legal protection in EU law as a mear conduit,by freely signing up and agreeing to ‘a general monitoring of the network’ in that contract for profit.

might be some good points to raise as no front page copy has mentioned these yet.

[Shin Gouki]

Originally Posted by Mick

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/article/...ont-want-phorm

A very stern message to Virgin Media from us - its time they started taking heed and listening.

My contract with VM is up this time next week.

If they want me to continue paying them some of my hard earned they better listen up!

I'm ready to drop VM the first day they start working with these barstards!

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by popper

nice to see Cable Forum makeing the news rather than just posting the news, it showed up on the wire at
"Listen up now, Virgin Media - Your customers don't want Phorm" Cable Forum 13:38
very quick, so make those copy changes PDQ

user's copyright, ‘commercial piracy’ and the ’safe harbor’ question.

did the UK ISPs in question, infact give up their legal protection in EU law as a mear conduit,by freely signing up and agreeing to ‘a general monitoring of the network’ in that contract for profit.

might be some good points to raise as no front page copy has mentioned these yet.

They are officially only monitoring one protocol (HTTP) and it is an automated system with no human intervention, so they may have an argument there regarding "safe harbour".

Alexander Hanff

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

<snip>

By copy - I think that is well written and will use it instead of the hastily written one I did this lunchtime. If you want me to credit you on the news article, I would be happy to.

CF needs more news writers btw.

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Mick

By copy - I think that is well written and will use it instead of the hastily written one I did this lunchtime. If you want me to credit you on the news article, I would be happy to.

CF needs more news writers btw.

Credit me if you wish but I am not going to be anal about it, I am passionate about this campaign and I am happy to contribute in any way I can.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:12 ---------- Previous post was at 17:02 ----------

You guys got an irc channel?

No - We have a flashchat feature though on the forum that is hardly ever used.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/misc.php?do=flashchat

[AlexanderHanff]

Originally Posted by Mick

No - We have a flashchat feature though on the forum that is hardly ever used.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/misc.php?do=flashchat

Yeah I noticed that but I am 64bit Linux and don't have a flash plugin. Might be worth setting up an IRC channel on Freenode or something where your users can discuss these issues in real time. Maybe formulate some ideas for direct action and other methods of educating the general public about this issue.

[EDIT]
I have opened an irc channel on the Freenode irc network. To access the channel and discuss this issue in real time please download an irc client ( http://www.silverex.org/download/ is free and Open Source ) and connect to the Freenode network. If you already have an irc client you can connect by typing /server irc.freenode.net from the command line in your irc client. Once you are connected to the server simply type /join #cableforum to enter the chat room.

If you don't want to download 3rd party software, you can access the chatroom via your web browser by going to:

http://www.mibbit.com/

Here is a screenshot of how the form should look on mibbit to enable you to connect to the right channel and server:



Just an idea.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 17:28 ---------- Previous post was at 17:17 ----------

Oh my nick on IRC is Paladine by the way, so if a mod wants to message me when they connect I will give them the registration details for the channel. Alternatively message me on these forums.

[rogerdraig]

Originally Posted by Mick

No - We have a flashchat feature though on the forum that is hardly ever used.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/misc.php?do=flashchat

lol so you have learn something new every day

and it certainly is quiet in there ( sounds of tumble weed blowing around )