12-11-2021, 16:26
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#2986
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,231
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Re: Britain outside the EU
If Article 16 was invoked, it would run and run. I think the government's sensible enough not to deploy it unless it still buys into the Cummings' play book of putting out one fire with a larger fire.
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12-11-2021, 16:39
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#2987
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Trollsplatter
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1
If Article 16 was invoked, it would run and run. I think the government's sensible enough not to deploy it unless it still buys into the Cummings' play book of putting out one fire with a larger fire.
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It would, but that’s the whole idea. There has been much talk of “retaliation” from the EU if the UK invokes Art.16 but this misses the fact that any such retaliation can only be within the legal framework set out in the treaty. The EU can’t justify any actions outside of the treaty because in invoking Art.16 the UK isn’t acting outside of the treaty.
The EU can challenge the legality of the invocation - the time-consuming process for which is specified in the treaty - or it can enter into the required arbitration and review process. Again, this process is defined in the treaty and takes time to complete.
As you say, this could be construed as putting out one fire by starting a bigger one, however if this really is the strategy they’ve been following from the outset then it has to be at least possible that there’s a defined objective in mind. My guess is that HMG thinks whatever conditions develop on the ground while the arbitration plays out will become the de facto arrangements for the long term.
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12-11-2021, 17:07
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#2988
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,359
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Re: Britain outside the EU
I like the fact that the presumption that this Government have a plan has been demoted to “at least possible” therefore acknowledging the perhaps more likely possibility that there isn’t one and they are merely leaping from crisis to crisis.
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12-11-2021, 17:20
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#2989
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Why bother having a plan if nobody follows it? 
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12-11-2021, 18:19
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#2990
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Join Date: Jun 2006
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Posts: 42,098
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Re: Britain outside the EU
The plan has to be capable of being workable in the first place, otherwise it’s a wish-lust, not a plan…
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12-11-2021, 20:46
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#2991
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vox populi vox dei
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: the last resort
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Posts: 13,739
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
The plan has to be capable of being workable in the first place, otherwise it’s a wish-lust, not a plan…
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Easy tiger, cold shower time
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12-11-2021, 22:29
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#2992
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laeva recumbens anguis
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Miaaaooowwwww….
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12-11-2021, 22:49
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#2993
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,231
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Brexit doesn't seem to be meeting the conventional definition of taking back control of our borders.
Quote:
Brexit has made it easier for small boat crossings to reach UK, refugees say
Outside EU, people can no longer be returned to other European countries under legislation known as Dublin regulation
Refugees living in northern France say Brexit has made it easier for them to reach the UK in small boats, as it emerged that record numbers of people crossed the Channel in one day.
Despite the worsening weather conditions and the UK government’s attempts to deter them, 1,185 people made the crossing on Thursday, according to the Home Office...
Previously, when the UK was part of the EU, under a mechanism known as Dublin the UK could ask other EU countries to take back people they could prove had passed through safe European countries before reaching the UK.
The UK could make “take charge” requests and officials were often able to prove that asylum seekers had passed through other countries thanks to the Eurodac fingerprint database. But since Brexit the UK no longer has access to that database, so it is harder to prove definitively which other European countries small boat arrivals to the UK have previously passed through.
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...k-refugees-say
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12-11-2021, 23:40
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#2994
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Start sinking the boats, they'll soon pack in
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13-11-2021, 00:54
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#2995
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laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Probably not the best move, as that would be murder…
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13-11-2021, 02:42
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#2996
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Rise above the players
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
It would, but that’s the whole idea. There has been much talk of “retaliation” from the EU if the UK invokes Art.16 but this misses the fact that any such retaliation can only be within the legal framework set out in the treaty. The EU can’t justify any actions outside of the treaty because in invoking Art.16 the UK isn’t acting outside of the treaty.
The EU can challenge the legality of the invocation - the time-consuming process for which is specified in the treaty - or it can enter into the required arbitration and review process. Again, this process is defined in the treaty and takes time to complete.
As you say, this could be construed as putting out one fire by starting a bigger one, however if this really is the strategy they’ve been following from the outset then it has to be at least possible that there’s a defined objective in mind. My guess is that HMG thinks whatever conditions develop on the ground while the arbitration plays out will become the de facto arrangements for the long term.
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Maybe you have misjudged the power of the ECJ!
---------- Post added at 02:42 ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
Probably not the best move, as that would be murder…
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Or maybe collateral damage?
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13-11-2021, 08:42
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#2997
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laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2006
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Re: Britain outside the EU
No, not under International Law (or our own Military Regulations) - undertaking acts whose sole purpose is to kill civilians (and if you sink boats and leave people to drown, that’s what you’re doing) would be an Unlawful Order, and would be refused.
It’s no better than machine-gunning civilians who present no threat to your life - just slower.
The sociopathy is strong in this thread…
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13-11-2021, 10:10
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#2998
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Trollsplatter
Cable Forum Team
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1
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I’m pretty sure you know that the Brexit discussion around border control was to do with EU free movement. It’s in rather poor taste for you to be using a humanitarian crisis to try to keep pushing your agenda.
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13-11-2021, 10:31
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#2999
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At the Leaving door
Posts: 4,050
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
No, not under International Law (or our own Military Regulations) - undertaking acts whose sole purpose is to kill civilians (and if you sink boats and leave people to drown, that’s what you’re doing) would be an Unlawful Order, and would be refused.
It’s no better than machine-gunning civilians who present no threat to your life - just slower.
The sociopathy is strong in this thread…
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The French don't seem to mind letting them climb aboard unsuitable boats (many not even wearing a life jacket) at their end . . is that culpable homicide, assisted suicide or something?
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13-11-2021, 10:36
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#3000
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,423
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Re: Britain outside the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I’m pretty sure you know that the Brexit discussion around border control was to do with EU free movement. It’s in rather poor taste for you to be using a humanitarian crisis to try to keep pushing your agenda.
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<in a Yoda voice>Denial is strong in this one</in a Yoda voice>
Pearl clutching does not become you. The Brexit was all about "controlling our borders" and actively encouraged xenophobia. Andrew's article is right on point and the irony is off the scale.
There is no agenda here, only reality.
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