Brexit

Originally Posted by Mr K

We can't brag on democracy either. The next PM is being chosen by 0.2% of the population, some of whom have received more than one vote ! Way to go democracy UK !

As for the EU, the recent EU elections bases on a PR system is far more democratic than our first past the post, where depending on which constitutency you're in your vote is pointless.

Try moving the goal posts again as the EU win on democracy

Rubbish. We’re not talking about MEP Elections. We are talking about the appointment of the EU Commission President.

“Appointed” not “Elected”.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

Rubbish. We’re not talking about MEP Elections. We are talking about the appointment of the EU Commission President.

“Appointed” not “Elected”.

And our 'appointed' House of Lords ? We really are no better.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

And our 'appointed' House of Lords ? We really are no better.

Mr K almost had a point there but for the fact that theLords can propose legislation which the EU Parliament cannot. The EU Parliament my well be elected by a democratic process but it is a sham institution that serves the undemocratic EU’s purpose of democratic pretence.

Note how each treaty inches forward the federation agenda; note also that the majority of MEPs support that because then they trump our national parliaments. Creeping dictatorship is not an unwarranted prognosis.

Originally Posted by Mr K

And our 'appointed' House of Lords ? We really are no better.

Laughable. This shows how little you know about Lords functionality compared to MEP’s.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Rubbish. We’re not talking about MEP Elections. We are talking about the appointment of the EU Commission President.

“Appointed” not “Elected”.

Many roles in the UK are not elected - civil service heads, Lords, the King/Queen. If we criticise the EU for all roles not being elected, should we do the same for the UK?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Many roles in the UK are not elected - civil service heads, Lords, the King/Queen. If we criticise the EU for all roles not being elected, should we do the same for the UK?

This comparison between British Sovereigns and The EU, is pathetic.

The very big difference is, we’re not trying to become a illegitimate Federal corrupt institution. Some of you Remainers need to wake the hell up. The new EU Commission President ambitions for a Federal Europe should worry the hell out of you. A United States of Europe becoming an ever new possibility, an EU Army, all these things you Remainers admonished leavers for, for being utter fantasy, now a distinct reality with this new President. Not in my name. Britain needs to leave, now so more urgently.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

This comparison between British Sovereigns and The EU, is pathetic.

The very big difference is, we’re not trying to become a illegitimate Federal corrupt institution. Some of you Remainers need to wake the hell up. The new EU Commission President ambitions for a Federal Europe should worry the hell out of you. A United States of Europe becoming an ever new possibility, an EU Army, all these things you Remainers admonished leavers for, for being utter fantasy, now a distinct reality with this new President. Not in my name. Britain needs to leave, now so more urgently.

How do you personally think your life will change for the better when we leave? What are you expecting to see?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

This comparison between British Sovereigns and The EU, is pathetic.

The very big difference is, we’re not trying to become a illegitimate Federal corrupt institution. Some of you Remainers need to wake the hell up. The new EU Commission President ambitions for a Federal Europe should worry the hell out of you. A United States of Europe becoming an ever new possibility, an EU Army, all these things you Remainers admonished leavers for, for being utter fantasy, now a distinct reality with this new President. Not in my name. Britain needs to leave, now so more urgently.

We all know by now that countries can veto greater integration and presidents come and go. So, no, I'm not worried, even if we do end up remaining in the EU.
I am however worried about any disintegration of the UK. But according to Farage, that's a price worth paying for Brexit. Do you agree with him? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8988146.html

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

We all know by now that countries can veto greater integration and presidents come and go. So, no, I'm not worried, even if we do end up remaining in the EU.
I am however worried about any disintegration of the UK. But according to Farage, that's a price worth paying for Brexit. Do you agree with him? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8988146.html

Stop deflecting. Guy Verhofstadt is trying to champion and wants to remove each countries veto power.

---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

How do you personally think your life will change for the better when we leave? What are you expecting to see?

Irrelevant. I expect democracy to be enacted. We voted to leave.

Originally Posted by Mr K

How do you personally think your life will change for the better when we leave? What are you expecting to see?

Wow, a genuinely good question

Direct personal benefit to me is hard to quantify. I expect to see the House of Commons reenergised by having to directly formulate laws in all the areas where at present it simply waves through directives from Brussels. I expect to see lobbying presently targeted at Brussels aimed squarely at our own parliamentarians. I expect to see laws on the environment, health and safety, market regulation etc passed here to be amendable down the line as circumstances change, following debate held here, to suit us. I expect to see our Press begin to hold our parliament accountable for all the laws it passes instead of blaming Brussels. And I expect all of that enrich our national life and in the longer run I expect the freedom and energy thus unleashed will enable the country to become a happier, wealthier place. I consider that to be a personal benefit to me and to all.

Perhaps you were hoping for some attempt to claim instant financial rewards, however I hope you will agree that voting for short-term financial reasons is selfish and, well, shortsighted.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Stop deflecting. Guy Verhofstadt is trying to champion and wants to remove each countries veto power.

Well that can't be done, sorry Guy.
Don't you have an opinion on whether the disintegration of the UK is a price worth paying for Brexit?

---------- Post added at 11:31 ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Wow, a genuinely good question

Direct personal benefit to me is hard to quantify. I expect to see the House of Commons reenergised by having to directly formulate laws in all the areas where at present it simply waves through directives from Brussels. I expect to see lobbying presently targeted at Brussels aimed squarely at our own parliamentarians. I expect to see laws on the environment, health and safety, market regulation etc passed here to be amendable down the line as circumstances change, following debate held here, to suit us. I expect to see our Press begin to hold our parliament accountable for all the laws it passes instead of blaming Brussels. And I expect all of that enrich our national life and in the longer run I expect the freedom and energy thus unleashed will enable the country to become a happier, wealthier place. I consider that to be a personal benefit to me and to all.

Perhaps you were hoping for some attempt to claim instant financial rewards, however I hope you will agree that voting for short-term financial reasons is selfish and, well, shortsighted.

Quality answer.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Many roles in the UK are not elected - civil service heads, Lords, the King/Queen. If we criticise the EU for all roles not being elected, should we do the same for the UK?

I think that the comparison you've made is false and insufficiently specific.

I criticise the EU for putting up a democratic pretence, of which the stitch up for the top unelected roles is a perfect example.

I don’t think the disintegration of the UK is on the cards (caveat - it may accelerate the process of reunification in Ireland but that is the endgame envisaged by the GFA even though nobody will say it out loud - the circumstances and mechanism for a “border poll” are written into law in both the UK and Ireland, which is not the case, for example, with regards to Scotland).

Scottish Nationalists will “warn” that calls for a second referendum on independence will become irresistible if X, Y, or Z happens but then they warn that on a weekly basis so there’s no reason to take it especially seriously. I appreciate that only makes the national news when the cries are especially shrill but within Scotland it is part of the background noise and these things have far less lasting effect on Scottish public opinion than you might think.

There is a body of opinion here that says if/when Brexit occurs, whether or not there’s a deal, the sheer uncertainty it will cause over the short to medium term will make people think twice about supercharging it with more constitutional shenanigans. Scots are canny, they won’t vote to make themselves poorer and the unicorns-for-all argument that proved a tough sell even in 2014 is impossible now.

Nicola Sturgeon is presently engaged in a massive exercise in party management, trying not to allow the independence movement to fracture. There are some proper bravehearts in her party who really do think they should be holding another vote right now. There are also pragmatists (and Sturgeon is one of them) who actually do believe in the SNP’s started policy after 2014, which is that they shouldn’t hold another referendum until the polls consistently showed a comfortable lead for separation. That has never been the case in Scotland, at any point before or since 2014. Sturgeon’s solution is to present a Bill that will create an enabling Act, detailing how any referendum that the Scottish government has the power to call, should be conducted. It will not attempt to authorise the administration to hold any referendum that it is *not* authorised for. So the rules it creates will enable the Scottish government to hold a referendum on, for example, extending the franchise to age 16 for any election it is responsible for (local councils, for example), but its rules can only be applied to an independence referendum if Westminster has devolved the power to do so via the granting of a Section 50 order as it did in 2013.

Expect, this autumn, much noise to be made about this legislation as it is presented to Holyrood, but do not be fooled. Sturgeon is doing something because she has to be seen to be doing something.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chris

Wow, a genuinely good question

Direct personal benefit to me is hard to quantify. I expect to see the House of Commons reenergised by having to directly formulate laws in all the areas where at present it simply waves through directives from Brussels. I expect to see lobbying presently targeted at Brussels aimed squarely at our own parliamentarians. I expect to see laws on the environment, health and safety, market regulation etc passed here to be amendable down the line as circumstances change, following debate held here, to suit us. I expect to see our Press begin to hold our parliament accountable for all the laws it passes instead of blaming Brussels. And I expect all of that enrich our national life and in the longer run I expect the freedom and energy thus unleashed will enable the country to become a happier, wealthier place. I consider that to be a personal benefit to me and to all.

Perhaps you were hoping for some attempt to claim instant financial rewards, however I hope you will agree that voting for short-term financial reasons is selfish and, well, shortsighted.

The country as a whole will prosper with our new freedoms and the right PM at the helm. Boris seems to have the right ideas, with his tax free ports, etc.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Chris

Wow, a genuinely good question

Direct personal benefit to me is hard to quantify. I expect to see the House of Commons reenergised by having to directly formulate laws in all the areas where at present it simply waves through directives from Brussels. I expect to see lobbying presently targeted at Brussels aimed squarely at our own parliamentarians. I expect to see laws on the environment, health and safety, market regulation etc passed here to be amendable down the line as circumstances change, following debate held here, to suit us. I expect to see our Press begin to hold our parliament accountable for all the laws it passes instead of blaming Brussels. And I expect all of that enrich our national life and in the longer run I expect the freedom and energy thus unleashed will enable the country to become a happier, wealthier place. I consider that to be a personal benefit to me and to all.

Perhaps you were hoping for some attempt to claim instant financial rewards, however I hope you will agree that voting for short-term financial reasons is selfish and, well, shortsighted.

I thought it was a good question to, deserving of a good answer. I do wonder how many vote for the greater good rather than personal gain though, when I supported ukip to an unhealthy degree it was mainly for my benefit although I was well aware there were millions of others like me at the time being under cut and forced out of industries due to unfettered immigration. It will be good to remove the governments stock excuse of the eu made us do it though and make them take responsibility for there decisions for a change to.