Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]

[AlexanderHanff]

I am hoping to have some very good news later this week everyone. I can't go into any details at this time as I am under a non-disclosure agreement, but I can say it would be very very good news for the campaign if everything works out as it appears it will.

Alexander Hanff

[Privacy_Matters]

Originally Posted by HamsterWheel

Consent to do what though ? That is the question.
I'd argue that what Phorm are doing does not need consent. Or else what Google already does in a much more invasive way would also be illegal, but it's not.

Well thats your arguement - you heard mine.

We'll agree to disagree and move on?

(This is a test of your resolve, and your intentions Hamster)

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff

I am hoping to have some very good news later this week everyone. I can't go into any details at this time as I am under a non-disclosure agreement, but I can say it would be very very good news for the campaign if everything works out as it appears it will.

Alexander Hanff

That sounds ominous (for BT/Phorm)

[Privacy_Matters]

Investers getting itchy feet !!!

Half million worth of shares sold, look at last sell:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...;timeframe=480

Originally Posted by Privacy_Matters

Investers getting itchy feet !!!

Half million worth of shares sold, look at last sell:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...;timeframe=480

No BT trial then........ Yet again

[HamsterWheel]

Share sales and purchases for the day virtually match.
Price up on the day.
Investors will be able to afford to pay someone else to scratch their feet !

[mark777]

Originally Posted by Privacy_Matters

Investers getting itchy feet !!!

Half million worth of shares sold, look at last sell:

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...;timeframe=480

It's late reported, from 9.17 this morning. Don't know if that means anything?

http://www.lse.co.uk/ShareTrades.asp...re=phorm_reg_s

[JackSon]

Originally Posted by HamsterWheel

Consent to do what though ? That is the question.
I'd argue that what Phorm are doing does not need consent. Or else what Google already does in a much more invasive way would also be illegal, but it's not.

I think there is a delicate difference between needing consent for searches you yourself choose to enter into Google to be logged (which by its very nature is opt-in) and needing informed consent to have your entire port 80 data stream intercepted, analyzed (prior to being 'anonimyzed', and, more importantly, to determine if you give consent for said data to be collected, analyzed etc.).

Google's sytem is limited to people first choosing to use their site and is then only limited to what users do on that site. Once a search is run and results are returend that is the end of the data collection by Google. Furthermore, the data harvesting can be completely opted out from by blocking Google's tracking cookies. Once that is done, nothing is recorded, the opt-out is 100% In addition, if that is not enough for a user, they can choose not to use Google at all. Conversely, Phorm is always present on a connection.

Phorm as you are aware is not limited by either of these, as they see and intercept the entire thing, before they can decided if you are opted in or not. That is by far more invasive. To increase the invasiveness, to determine an opt-out status Phorm has to intercept your data stream - by which time is is technically too late to ask for consent for something which has already been done. That is what makes Phorm 'appear' more illegal than Google.

It should also be noted that these interceptions are all prior to data being anonymized, therefore the issues of Phorm's legality are under question before that data has been cleanseed so the "phorm stores no personally identifiable data" data doesn't even come close to addressing this.

---------- Post added at 18:15 ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 ----------

To sumamrise, it is the method of data collection and the apparent inability to completely opt-out of having data intercepted which upsets most people, and also has the brighter bulb of being illegal than the techniques incorporated by Google and other search engines.

The anonymizing process on the other hand is, I agree, a good effort - it is a shame everything piror to that does not satisfy me (personally) one bit.

[HamsterWheel]

Jackson - you can opt out of Phorm too, and in a way that seems so far to be agreeable to the regulators.
You will no doubt choose to disagree, but your vote doesn't really count if the regulators decide otherwise.

Sure you can all make up valid arguments about which 3 nanoseconds Phorm appears to be breaking some rule or other, but the authorities will not wish to stand in the way of commercial progress just to comply with some part of a rule or law that was not intended to cover the way Phorm is operating, but has just been used to try and object to Phorm.

That is the nub of my argument - sure you may be able to find a law and try and attach it to what Phorm does, but if it wasn't intended to catch the sort of thing Phorm does, then the authorities will not bother applying it.

[JackSon]

Ah you see though, how does Phrom see if you are opted out? By doing the very thing is is determining consent for. This is a classic chicken and egg problem.

The clearest analogy is sealing an envelope and having a message inside saying "I do not give consent for Mr Postman to open and read this" and of course the Postman will only know your consent status by opening and reading the letter. Too late.

My persoanl opionin on Phorm's opt-out is that it should be rebranded just a little, to 'you can opt-out of the adverts'. The DPI data interception of your entire traffic will still take palce.

[HamsterWheel]

Jackson - my interpretation of what you are objecting to is that it is a bit like a voyeur looking over a wall into the window of a school changing room. As long as he keeps his eyes shut then what's the problem ?
Sure you can argue that he might open his eyes for a crafty peek, but if you apply that then everyone who walks past the wall would also be guilty, just in case they jumped up and peered over the wall.... am I losing the plot here ?

[SelfProtection]

While this troll is active I suggest everyone not directly involved in the interaction goes off & continues the Webwise/Phorm debate elsewhere, this will eventually have far more impact than appearing "to feed the troll".

[Dephormation]

Originally Posted by Privacy_Matters

Investers getting itchy feet !!!

Half million worth of shares sold

I didn't see that coming.

I think they call it 'the dump'.

Pumpetypumpetypumpetydump.

[HamsterWheel]

Self protesction - your definition of "debate" being ?

[Privacy_Matters]

Originally Posted by Dephormation

I didn't see that coming.

I think they call it 'the dump'.

Pumpetypumpetypumpetydump.

There were two trades totalling over 1.2 million SOLD today.