Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by Osem

When we're referring to companies the size of RBS, HBOS etc., shareholders 'taking the pain' inevitably means a great many very ordinary pensioners who made no choice to invest in those companies so let's be clear that it's only the rich who would be suffer if they were allowed to fail.

Investment, bar in guaranteed savings accounts, should carry risk. That's why there's a return on those investments.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Investment, bar in guaranteed savings accounts, should carry risk. That's why there's a return on those investments.

Correct nothing's guaranteed but to imply that shareholders don't or haven't suffered and that they don't include virtually everyone who has a decent pension is patent nonsense. What real choice does an ordinary pensioner have in what his/her pension fund is invested in? It's all very well banging on about letting companies fail but let's not forget the collateral damage eh? How happy would you be if your partner's pension was decimated through no fault of her own?

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Investment, bar in guaranteed savings accounts, should carry risk. That's why there's a return on those investments.

Investors have lost out, if only in lower rates of return.

It was faith in the investments business that is being protected. If nobody feels safe enough to invest, where will the money for mortgages, business and personal loans, and even Government debt, come from?

[GrimUpNorth]

Originally Posted by Osem

How happy would you be if your partner's pension was decimated through no fault of her own?

If I'm correct, Igni's other half is a teacher, so like the rest of us in public service the present government's treating us as their whippieng boys, and so among other things her pension IS being decimated through no fault of her own!

Cheers

Grim

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

If I'm correct, Igni's other half is a teacher, so like the rest of us in public service the present government's treating us as their whippieng boys, and so among other things her pension IS being decimated through no fault of her own!

Cheers

Grim

Decimated to private sector levels.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Decimated to private sector levels.

Because "We're all in this together". Right?

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Because "We're all in this together". Right?

And we all know what a MOD edit soundbite that was.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr Angry

Because "We're all in this together". Right?

Absolutely, tell the public sector that...

But that's another debate.

[Mr Angry]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Absolutely, tell the public sector that... But that's another debate.

The public sector have been told that. They're sick sore and tired encouraging your average private sector workers to stand up for better protections and pensions instead of blindly and gullibly buying into divisive soundbites and creating a race to the bottom. As you say, it's another debate.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Investors have lost out, if only in lower rates of return.

It was faith in the investments business that is being protected. If nobody feels safe enough to invest, where will the money for mortgages, business and personal loans, and even Government debt, come from?

Well for a start the money for mortgages, businesses and personal loans is created out of thin air for the most part thanks to the joys of fractional reserve banking.

http://www.positivemoney.org/ can assist with this concept.

Insolvent banks having their credit ratings propped up on the assumption that the state will bail them out isn't my idea of capitalism.

---------- Post added at 07:55 ---------- Previous post was at 07:53 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

Correct nothing's guaranteed but to imply that shareholders don't or haven't suffered and that they don't include virtually everyone who has a decent pension is patent nonsense. What real choice does an ordinary pensioner have in what his/her pension fund is invested in? It's all very well banging on about letting companies fail but let's not forget the collateral damage eh? How happy would you be if your partner's pension was decimated through no fault of her own?

Pension funds have largely suffered due to government action, precisely the bailouts I mentioned.

When plentiful, basically free money is being thrown at financial institutions by the central bank they, surprise surprise, don't feel the need to attract investors by offering appropriate rates of return.

As mentioned my partner's pension has been decimated through no fault of her own. The scheme was changed just a few years ago and signed off as sustainable, however as we're all in it together the current government decided to use the surplus of that pension fund to subsidise others.

---------- Post added at 08:01 ---------- Previous post was at 07:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Decimated to private sector levels.

Be awesome if her working hours were decimated to private sector levels rather than her current pattern of 7am -> 10pm during the week with another 12 or so hours of work done this weekend which is pretty much routine during term-time.

Her contributions to her pension are higher than standard private sector levels, stands to reason her annuity should be.

The government contribution goes some way towards offsetting the miserable salary for an extremely hard and fraught post-graduate job.

---------- Post added at 08:02 ---------- Previous post was at 08:01 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Absolutely, tell the public sector that...

But that's another debate.

Will do, once the message hits the 'wealth creators' who've seen their wealth not only recover its fall in 2008-9 but continue to rise beyond that level while everyone else, both public and private sector, is worse off.

Guess where all that cheap, manufactured money the BoE have been pumping out has ended up?

Meanwhile, back on the campaign trail, No supporters in my local area seem finally to have snapped. Until now, all the vandalism of campaign signage (and I mean, absolutely all of it) has been Yessers tearing down or spray painting No signs. However, in the last 24 hours there has been a spate of attacks on Yes signs. And a hillside local to me, which had an enormous Yes spelled out on it in white plastic (installed overnight and first visible Sunday morning) was entirely removed by 8am today.

I get the impression that there is a lot of pent-up indignation amongst people who are planning to vote No but have felt intimidated by how loud and in-your-face some of the so-called grassroots Yessers have been.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

If I'm correct, Igni's other half is a teacher, so like the rest of us in public service the present government's treating us as their whippieng boys, and so among other things her pension IS being decimated through no fault of her own!

Cheers

Grim

Yes I know she is - he's mentioned it more that once in several threads which I why I mentioned her. We're all too aware of how public sector pensions are being hit by HMG changing the rules - there have been many strikes for this reason. However it's not the value of the funds themselves which is the issue there (teacher's pensions are unfunded IIRC). No more comfort to those affected I know but very different reasons.

The point being made was that if/when companies like the banks are just allowed to fail it's not only well heeled fat cats who lose out. It's also ordinary people whose private sector pensions and savings are invested in those companies which by the very fact that they are so large have to form a part of any significant investment portfolio. Every time a PLC goes bust the shareholders lose out but you'd never think so given the usual rhetoric about greedy shareholders never suffering. Yes that is a risk shareholders take when they invest directly in shares but what real choice does the ordinary private sector worker have as to where his employer's pension fund is invested? So if you have sympathy for public sector workers have sympathy for private sector workers too whose pension funds suffer and also fluctuate with market volatility.

Anyway this is OT so perhaps we should leave the subject for another thread.

@Ignitionet - I refer the honourable gentleman to my post above.

---------- Post added at 11:33 ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Meanwhile, back on the campaign trail, No supporters in my local area seem finally to have snapped. Until now, all the vandalism of campaign signage (and I mean, absolutely all of it) has been Yessers tearing down or spray painting No signs. However, in the last 24 hours there has been a spate of attacks on Yes signs. And a hillside local to me, which had an enormous Yes spelled out on it in white plastic (installed overnight and first visible Sunday morning) was entirely removed by 8am today.

I get the impression that there is a lot of pent-up indignation amongst people who are planning to vote No but have felt intimidated by how loud and in-your-face some of the so-called grassroots Yessers have been.

Perhaps the saddest thing about all this is how it's given rise to so much bile and intimidation - something which the SNP seems to view as an acceptable means to an end. Whatever happens now there's going to be a lot of very bitter people in Scotland and if Westminster starts offering all sorts of financial 'concessions' there'll be a lot of unhappy folks in the rest of the UK too.

I wonder what Salmond's real legacy will be.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Osem

I wonder what Salmond's real legacy will be.

Division. Causing real fallouts between yes and no to the point of violence and intimidation.

A number of yes campaigners aren't pro-Scotland, just anti British/English and they won't take a no vote in good grace.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Derek

Division. Causing real fallouts between yes and no to the point of violence and intimidation.

A number of yes campaigners aren't pro-Scotland, just anti British/English and they won't take a no vote in good grace.

Yes so it seems. No doubt these sad folks have rather enjoyed their few months of importance and won't want to go back to being pathetic cyber warriors most people just ignore. If the vote goes the wrong way for them I don't suppose they'll accept defeat at all, let alone gracefully.

I don't think this has been handled at all well by HMG but have a feeling that whatever they'd done Salmond would have ensured it came back to bite them.

I hope the majority of Scots see what's really happening here and what the risks are. There's a hell of a lot at stake up there.

[Pierre]

what do you reckon? in the event of a No win?

Localised violence/ riots?

Doesn't take a lot for that to happen, anywhere, nowadays