Will Scotland Leave the UK?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Disaster for whom? You prolly meant Scotland.

So what benefit might Scotland draw from independence in the circumstances you have set out?

Sovereignty and all the benefits this confers.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

<SNIP>

Control of our borders, economy, not to be dictated to from people we didn’t elect in a far flung city. To escape corruption and political appointees.

I’d have thought the Honourable Member for Wokingham would have been fully on board with this.

I don't know what to make of what you've written.

1/
Are you Scottish or living there?

2/
Is the main Parliament a dictatorship in the commonly understood sense?

3/
Escape Corruption? Is this hastily found link of any use? https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpi...d-to-fight-it/

Originally Posted by jfman

Essentially many people in Scotland see an independent state as a cultural attack on them, and all they have to link themselves to their cultural heritage is the outdated remnants of the British state. Monarchy, House of Lords, various titles of nobility.

There’s zero actual 21st century politics behind it.

---------- Post added at 15:47 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------



Control of our borders, economy, not to be dictated to from people we didn’t elect in a far flung city. To escape corruption and political appointees.

I’d have thought the Honourable Member for Wokingham would have been fully on board with this.

So what happens the first time a Scottish government formed of a party you didn’t vote for, wins power and starts making decisions you disapprove of? Edinburgh is far-flung to those in Shetland or the Outer Hebrides, places that voted No in 2014 and have no great history of voting for SNP representation. What about them?

Your argument may be reduced to ever more atomised degrees of absurdity. In a democracy there are always people who live with decisions taken far away by people they didn’t vote for. The scenario you outlined only makes sense in the minds of those accustomed to talking about “Scotland” as a homogenous mass, and assuming that everyone else thinks the way they do, or would do if given the chance to shed their false consciousness - it’s a common foible of nationalists.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Sovereignty and all the benefits this confers.

Is this a tongue in cheek remark based on my arguments for UK sovereignty? Or is it plain stupidity?

What means of wealth creation to adequately support 5½ million people and improve the quality of life? The Barnett Formula money they receive is a block grant from the UK Guvmin to allocate the devolved per capita spend in England to the devolved administrations.

If Scotland secedes they need wealth generation to cover this amount. Can they do this immediately?

Btw, OB is the Honourable Member for Wokingham. I'm the idiot from RG41.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I don't know what to make of what you've written.

1/
Are you Scottish or living there?

2/
Is the main Parliament a dictatorship in the commonly understood sense?

3/
Escape Corruption? Is this hastily found link of any use? https://sourcenews.scot/robin-mcalpi...d-to-fight-it/

There have been plenty of unelected UK H of L appointments under BoJo recently that are a bit iffy.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Btw, OB is the Honourable Member for Wokingham. I'm the idiot from RG41.

OB is the Right Honourable Member for Streaming.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

So what happens the first time a Scottish government formed of a party you didn’t vote for, wins power and starts making decisions you disapprove of? Edinburgh is far-flung to those in Shetland or the Outer Hebrides, places that voted No in 2014 and have no great history of voting for SNP representation. What about them?

It’s still a government in Scotland acting in the interests of Scotland. If a party won a Scottish election that I didn’t vote for then that would be the results.

However in the current arrangement Scotland consistently gets governed by a party it didn’t vote for, and actually has so little representation or relevance that it has no incentive to change.

Your argument may be reduced to ever more atomised degrees of absurdity. In a democracy there are always people who live with decisions taken far away by people they didn’t vote for. The scenario you outlined only makes sense in the minds of those accustomed to talking about “Scotland” as a homogenous mass, and assuming that everyone else thinks the way they do, or would do if given the chance to shed their false consciousness - it’s a common foible of nationalists.

You may consider the argument absurd, however many, many people (yes and no voters) consider sovereignty as important and to that end that it’s for the people of Scotland to decide their future as and when they please.

Scotland is indeed far from a singular homogenous mass, which makes the SNP polling and electoral performance of 45-50% of the vote even more astonishing that they can capture so many within such a rich and diverse society.

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

There have been plenty of unelected UK H of L appointments under BoJo recently that are a bit iffy.

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:12 ----------


OB is the Right Honourable Member for Streaming.

That reminds me I need to nip into the TV section for a laugh.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s still a government in Scotland acting in the interests of Scotland. If a party won a Scottish election that I didn’t vote for then that would be the results.

However in the current arrangement Scotland consistently gets governed by a party it didn’t vote for, and actually has so little representation or relevance that it has no incentive to change.



You may consider the argument absurd, however many, many people (yes and no voters) consider sovereignty as important and to that end that it’s for the people of Scotland to decide their future as and when they please.

Scotland is indeed far from a singular homogenous mass, which makes the SNP polling and electoral performance of 45-50% of the vote even more astonishing that they can capture so many within such a rich and diverse society.

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------



That reminds me I need to nip into the TV section for a laugh.

Hurry up then because you're boring the arse off of everyone on here with your constant pish.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s still a government in Scotland acting in the interests of Scotland. If a party won a Scottish election that I didn’t vote for then that would be the results.


<SNIP>

Dont you find that all politicians act in their own interests, particularly those at the top?

They try to balance throwing titbits to the public to the extent sufficient to keep them in power. But, imo, their motivation is not the best interests of their country all though they may be advanced to whatever extent by corollary.

My mind goes back to Cameron; in my judgement, his driving force to remain in the EU was to sit at the top table and be influential. Sure, he'd hope to get a good deal for the UK as that would likely keep him in power.

Sturgeon's not much different. She wants to sit at the top table in Europe - she doesn't sit at the top table in the UK as there is no top table.

Simples, really.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

Hurry up then because you're boring the arse off of everyone on here with your constant pish.

Oh dear. I’ve obviously hit a nerve since you no longer feel like debating.

Poor judgement by Red Card to miss the VJ Day commemorations in his own constituency. Even I, born long after VJ Day, recognise the importance of Union Flag waving events to his cause. He’s let Our Boys down badly there.

It’s disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, that the Conservative Party consider their leader in Scotland to be a part time position.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

It’s disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, that the Conservative Party consider their leader in Scotland to be a part time position.

It wouldn't be fair on BoJo if they made it a full-time role.

Originally Posted by jfman

Oh dear. I’ve obviously hit a nerve since you no longer feel like debating.

Poor judgement by Red Card to miss the VJ Day commemorations in his own constituency. Even I, born long after VJ Day, recognise the importance of Union Flag waving events to his cause. He’s let Our Boys down badly there.

It’s disappointing, although perhaps not surprising, that the Conservative Party consider their leader in Scotland to be a part time position.

It’s quite possible that he has notice to work - I don’t know what he’s saying about it but I’d be surprised if, now he’s leader, he continues his refereeing work for long.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

It’s quite possible that he has notice to work - I don’t know what he’s saying about it but I’d be surprised if, now he’s leader, he continues his refereeing work for long.

He’s publicly said that if he is First Minister he would stand down from his role as an assistant referee. Nothing about standing down since becoming leader of the Scottish Conservatives.

Could make some of the refereeing decisions he contributes to very interesting as Celtic march to 10 in a row come next March/April. Would he consider the voters in the stands?

“The referee’s a Tory” could become a popular chant from the terraces once the crowds are allowed back in

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Chris

“The referee’s a Tory” could become a popular chant from the terraces once the crowds are allowed back in

When l was younger and my Dad and bigger brother took me to the football l heard far worse then that.

Originally Posted by Chris

“The referee’s a Tory” could become a popular chant from the terraces once the crowds are allowed back in

I think you may have missed out an adjective between "a" and "Tory"...