Brexit discussion

[1andrew1]

Well done to Theresa May on getting Europe behind her at the European Council meeting in the dispute with Russia.

However, a year from now, the British won't have a seat at the European Council where she can persuade her peers to get behind Britain in our hour of need.

Ian Bond of the Centre for European Reform makes a good point. “If Mrs May had not been at the table yesterday, she would have been relying entirely on the leaders of France, Germany and others to make her point for her. That would have been a pretty tough thing to do. The French and Germans are obviously concerned about what the Russians are doing. But this isn’t their fight.”

Food for thought.

Not really Andrew security and intelligence cooperation will be one of the hot bargaining points in upcoming negotiations and it's an area where we have a clear advantage, condemnation of this type of incident would happen whether we were in or out of the EU by sensible national leaders.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Not really Andrew security and intelligence cooperation will be one of the hot bargaining points in upcoming negotiations and it's an area where we have a clear advantage, condemnation of this type of incident would happen whether we were in or out of the EU by sensible national leaders.

Nope, this is an unprecedented success story in kicking Russia into touch whilst the Brexiters' ally Donald Trump was busy fawning over Trump and not sticking up for us. These things don't happen by luck, they happy by being at the table which we will be quitting. As The Times reported:

Up to 20 European countries are preparing to expel Russian diplomats linked to Moscow espionage networks.
The unprecedented round of co-ordinated expulsions will begin on Monday with the recall of the European Union’s ambassador for Moscow for four weeks.
During four hours of talks on Thursday night Theresa May rallied France, Germany, Lithuania and Ireland behind a robust response designed to damage a web of clandestine Russian operations identified by British intelligence.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...mats-sb93kgl8d

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Well done to Theresa May on getting Europe behind her at the European Council meeting in the dispute with Russia.

However, a year from now, the British won't have a seat at the European Council where she can persuade her peers to get behind Britain in our hour of need.

Ian Bond of the Centre for European Reform makes a good point. “If Mrs May had not been at the table yesterday, she would have been relying entirely on the leaders of France, Germany and others to make her point for her. That would have been a pretty tough thing to do. The French and Germans are obviously concerned about what the Russians are doing. But this isn’t their fight.”

Food for thought.

No,no, no! Our security issues have absolutely nothing to do with EU!

Remember, we had similar co-operation well before the EU. Remember Interpol?

Where will these ridiculous stories ever end? Please, let's ignore fake news.

This incident would have been condemned whatever it really isn't an EU thing remember NATO most nations are also members of that lest we forget one senior EU official also congratulated Putin.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

This incident would have been condemned whatever it really isn't an EU thing remember NATO most nations are also members of that lest we forget one senior EU official also congratulated Putin.

Agreed, but that doesn't stop the remainer alarmists as portraying that the sky will fall in for whatever reason when we leave the EU!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

This incident would have been condemned whatever it really isn't an EU thing remember NATO most nations are also members of that lest we forget one senior EU official also congratulated Putin.

Not sure Trump is an EU official.
Read the article and others and you will learn about all the hard work that went on behind the scenes to get this statement out and related actions. You need to have a seat at the table to do this kind of stuff.

---------- Post added at 05:52 ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

No,no, no! Our security issues have absolutely nothing to do with EU!

Remember, we had similar co-operation well before the EU. Remember Interpol?

Where will these ridiculous stories ever end? Please, let's ignore fake news.

The Financial Times and The Times are not fake news. To suggest otherwise is crazy.

You and Jeremy Corbyn may hanker back to the institutions and ways of working in the 1970s but the world has changed a lot since then.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Not sure Trump is an EU official.
Read the article and others and you will learn about all the hard work that went on behind the scenes to get this statement out and related actions. You need to have a seat at the table to do this kind of stuff.

---------- Post added at 05:52 ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 ----------



The Financial Times and The Times are not fake news. To suggest otherwise is crazy.



You and Jeremy Corbyn may hanker back to the institutions and ways of working in the 1970s but the world has changed a lot since then.

Its only fake if it does not suit ones agenda.

We will retain our seat at the table through NATO and the UN both larger then the EU and condemnation would have happened regardless of the EU, i get that you view the EU in high regard but it's important not to overstate it's position nor understate the position of other bodies that exist. Juncker yet again demonstrated his stupidity by congratulating Putin given the situation at the time and along with Trump undermined the international community's position. Add to that it gave a hint of legitimacy to a person that absolutely didn't deserve it just on the election itself given how he removed credible opponents. To do it when Russia and Putin have committed attempted murder is not exactly a glowing endorsement of the EU or the shambles that resulted from it.

Instead of praising the EU for this condemnation perhaps you should give Theresa May some credit for working to restore some credibility to the EU after appaling handling by the president of the european commission.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

We will retain our seat at the table through NATO and the UN both larger then the EU and condemnation would have happened regardless of the EU, i get that you view the EU in high regard but it's important not to overstate it's position nor understate the position of other bodies that exist. Juncker yet again demonstrated his stupidity by congratulating Putin given the situation at the time and along with Trump undermined the international community's position. Add to that it gave a hint of legitimacy to a person that absolutely didn't deserve it just on the election itself given how he removed credible opponents. To do it when Russia and Putin have committed attempted murder is not exactly a glowing endorsement of the EU or the shambles that resulted from it.

Instead of praising the EU for this condemnation perhaps you should give Theresa May some credit for working to restore some credibility to the EU after appaling handling by the president of the european commission.

I've totally condemned Juncker and Trump before. They should both quit for their treacherous comments. Two bad peas in a pod! Juncker's letter looked like a job application and Trump seemed to acknowledge the hold that Putin has over him. Sickening stuff from those who are our allies.
The EU is a powerful combination of countries and it's better to have the UK in it steering it in the right direction. With the UN veto and NATO a military organisation, the EC fills a need. Hopefully something can be replicated post December 2020 as Russia knows we're stronger together.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I've totally condemned Juncker and Trump before. They should both quit for their treacherous comments. Two bad peas in a pod! Juncker's letter looked like a job application and Trump seemed to acknowledge the hold that Putin has over him. Sickening stuff from those who are our allies.
The EU is a powerful combination of countries and it's better to have the UK in it steering it in the right direction. With the UN veto and NATO a military organisation, the EC fills a need. Hopefully something can be replicated post December 2020 as Russia knows we're stronger together.

We are in the EU for the trade, not for security reasons. That is NATO's role.

If we were reliant on the EU for our secutity, I really would be worried! They have proved ineffective and they rely heavily on the UK's intelligence and leadership. There are many things that the EU negotiators might throw out of their prams, but our security expertise and co-operation is not one of them.

Clearly, you want to big up the EU, but you will have to do better than that, Andrew. They don't even think it is important to pay what they owe to NATO for their security - the UK is the only nation to take this matter seriously enough to make the level of contribution required.

No way are we relying on the EU for our security. That's just dreamland.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

We are in the EU for the trade, not for security reasons. That is NATO's role.

If we were reliant on the EU for our secutity, I really would be worried! They have proved ineffective and they rely heavily on the UK's intelligence and leadership. There are many things that the EU negotiators might throw out of their prams, but our security expertise and co-operation is not one of them.

Clearly, you want to big up the EU, but you will have to do better than that, Andrew. They don't even think it is important to pay what they owe to NATO for their security - the UK is the only nation to take this matter seriously enough to make the level of contribution required.

No way are we relying on the EU for our security. That's just dreamland.

Ineffective? How? The UK is very good in the intelligence and security fields and are certainly regarded as leaders in Europe along with Germany. However, surely any information is useful information? Even the smallest snippet of intelligence could be the key to saving lives so why not keep the door open to intelligence sharing?

The public is asked to be vigilant and report suspicious activity. This reporting can be useful. Just because it isn’t ‘there will be an attack by these people at this place at this time’ is that ineffective?

In addition, if GCHQ for example discovered information on something happening in the EU, surely sharing that information with our neighbours is a good thing to do?

Parliamentary report on security implications of Brexit BTW - http://researchbriefings.files.parli...8/CBP-7798.pdf

Found the following Europol report. This is a 2017 report showing figures from 2016 and before. France, Spain and Belgium seem to be pretty good at arrests leading to conviction - https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/.../tesat2017.pdf

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ineffective? How? The UK is very good in the intelligence and security fields and are certainly regarded as leaders in Europe along with Germany. However, surely any information is useful information? Even the smallest snippet of intelligence could be the key to saving lives so why not keep the door open to intelligence sharing?

The public is asked to be vigilant and report suspicious activity. This reporting can be useful. Just because it isn’t ‘there will be an attack by these people at this place at this time’ is that ineffective?

In addition, if GCHQ for example discovered information on something happening in the EU, surely sharing that information with our neighbours is a good thing to do?

Parliamentary report on security implications of Brexit BTW - http://researchbriefings.files.parli...8/CBP-7798.pdf

Found the following Europol report. This is a 2017 report showing figures from 2016 and before. France, Spain and Belgium seem to be pretty good at arrests leading to conviction - https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/.../tesat2017.pdf

Great analysis. If everyone posted links as you do this would be a very strong thread.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Ineffective? How? The UK is very good in the intelligence and security fields and are certainly regarded as leaders in Europe along with Germany. However, surely any information is useful information? Even the smallest snippet of intelligence could be the key to saving lives so why not keep the door open to intelligence sharing?

The public is asked to be vigilant and report suspicious activity. This reporting can be useful. Just because it isn’t ‘there will be an attack by these people at this place at this time’ is that ineffective?

In addition, if GCHQ for example discovered information on something happening in the EU, surely sharing that information with our neighbours is a good thing to do?

Parliamentary report on security implications of Brexit BTW - http://researchbriefings.files.parli...8/CBP-7798.pdf

Found the following Europol report. This is a 2017 report showing figures from 2016 and before. France, Spain and Belgium seem to be pretty good at arrests leading to conviction - https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/.../tesat2017.pdf

I didn't say the UK was ineffective, I said the EU was! Interesting how you have twisted this, however.

---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Great analysis. If everyone posted links as you do this would be a very strong thread.

Really? Why do you think that all co-operation with security issues would end with our departing the EU?

Curious way of thinking...!

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Really? Why do you think that all co-operation with security issues would end with our departing the EU?

Curious way of thinking...!

More curious is that you have failed to read The Times article which highlights this point and decided to put forward a negative straw man argument in response as oppose to suggest a positive way forwards.