Brexit discussion

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Well, after a brief hiatus while remainers got over the shock that we are actually proceeding to phase 2, all the nonsense is starting up again. Same old arguments, same old negativity from the remain brigade, never listening to the answers, just dredging up the same old rubbish and any old forecast that anticipates the end of the world.

Still they are not understanding the reason why we can't stay in the common market or customs union, (and why that would be contrary to the benefits of leaving the EU) despite these reasons being explained so many times.

Clearly, the brexiteers are communicating with people who do not want to know about all this and are determined to undermine the whole process to get their way, if they get the chance, blatantly ignoring the will of the electorate.

Clearly, all the positive information in the world is not going to change these minds, and so I think that's it for me. I'm out. See you all on the other side, after 2019!

What is the will of the electorate? Just those who voted or do we we count the non voters. And what about the under 18s who were deprived of a vote. we are in this mess due to the stupidity of Cameron running scared of UKIP.

We need another referendum to confirm our choice rather than leave it to a lot of sheep only looking to preserve their seats.

I don't think we should have another referendum but Brexit supporters do seem to think the result was more emphatic than it was when they say 'will of the people'. It's the will of just over half the people, and almost certainly less than that when you consider the under-18s who'll be in their twenties when we actually leave couldn't vote.

It was a legitimate result and it should be respected but the 'will of the people' overlooks just how divided the country is and a better understanding of that would help explain to them just why this is difficult and why the country isn't 'rallying behind Brexit'. Brexit doesn't actually have 'the people' behind it, it has half of people behind it and the other half passionately against it.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think we should have another referendum but Brexit supporters do seem to think the result was more emphatic than it was when they say 'will of the people'. It's the will of just over half the people, and almost certainly less than that when you consider the under-18s who'll be in their twenties when we actually leave couldn't vote.

It was a legitimate result and it should be respected but the 'will of the people' overlooks just how divided the country is and a better understanding of that would help explain to them just why this is difficult and why the country isn't 'rallying behind Brexit'. Brexit doesn't actually have 'the people' behind it, it has half of people behind it and the other half passionately against it.

l could have not said it better myself.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Damien

I don't think we should have another referendum but Brexit supporters do seem to think the result was more emphatic than it was when they say 'will of the people'. It's the will of just over half the people, and almost certainly less than that when you consider the under-18s who'll be in their twenties when we actually leave couldn't vote.

It was a legitimate result and it should be respected but the 'will of the people' overlooks just how divided the country is and a better understanding of that would help explain to them just why this is difficult and why the country isn't 'rallying behind Brexit'. Brexit doesn't actually have 'the people' behind it, it has half of people behind it and the other half passionately against it.

Not sure I totally agree. I for one voted remain and wish this whole thing wasn’t going ahead but if it has to, then a Brexit that is as painless as possible for the economy and country should be the aim. With a decision of this importance, we should hold the government to account. What is happening now will affect the country for years to come. It’s not like a manifesto promise that you can ride out for 5 years. This is pretty much permanent. So am I passionately against Brexit? No, I would rather it didn’t have to happen but if it does, let’s make it work.

At this point, 17,410,742 votes for leave and there are 17,410,742 opinions on what Brexit actually means down the line. When you add all the remain voters who accept the result, it gets even more complicated. Differences in opinion on how the process is going cause reactions way beyond the import of the opinion. Look at the motion to allow giving MPs a vote on the deal - not one of the Conservative rebels has tried to thwart Brexit, they supported a motion asking for parliamentary scrutiny of the deal, holding government to account. Yet now they are ‘traitors’ receiving death threats. John Stewart Mills ‘Tyranny of the Majority’ is writ large here.

Should we and can we rally around Brexit? The answer is ‘it depends’. What is the plan? What is the end point? How will we be affected? Can we trust the government to work in our interests? I have asked on this forum for members ‘fantasy Brexit’ with their ideal answers to the above and got no answer. Until this is clear, it is difficult to support. It’s not like supporting a football team blindly, give people a reason to support the process beyond simply the idea of Brexit meaning Brexit.

Sigh.

On June 23rd, those who were eligible to vote, had the will to vote, many people decided not to vote, then that is their fault, they then cannot deride the result and suggest it was short of the ‘will if the people’, when it is one of the largest democratic processes in terms of voter turnout.

So yes, it is the will of the people, whether remainers like it or not. You cannot suggest otherwise by including ineligible voters and yes that includes people who were not of age, those are the voter laws and definitely, those who could not be arsed to vote cannot be included either.

So this argument that only half the country voted is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by Mick

Sigh.

On June 23rd, those who were eligible to vote, had the will to vote, many people decided not to vote, then that is their fault, they then cannot deride the result and suggest it was short of the ‘will if the people’, when it is one of the largest democratic processes in terms of voter turnout.

So yes, it is the will of the people, whether remainers like it or not. You cannot suggest otherwise by including ineligible voters and yes that includes people who were not of age, those are the voter laws and definitely, those who could not be arsed to vote cannot be included either.

So this argument that only half the country voted is irrelevant.

But I am not arguing that the referendum isn't valid but that there is a division in the country and that explains, in part, the difficulty here. It isn't a point about the vote itself but now what happens after.

Centrally: That will of the people ignores that division.

The division is strong, no argument, for example, opened up my Twitter app as I do every morning. A tweet from a Remainer went along lines of :

“Half the pricks who voted for brexit don’t need passport seeing as they are too scared to leave their hometown.” - tweet in reference to the news of the passport changing back after Brexit. But this is just plain rude and arrogant, do fellow Remainers condone this attitude towards Brexiteers or condemn it ?

Originally Posted by Mick

The division is strong, no argument, for example, opened up my Twitter app as I do every morning. A tweet from a Remainer went along lines of :

“Half the pricks who voted for brexit don’t need passport seeing as they are too scared to leave their hometown.” - tweet in reference to the news of the passport changing back after Brexit. But this is just plain rude and arrogant, do fellow Remainers condone this attitude towards Brexiteers or condemn it ?

Well obviously I personally condemn it but I am not the spokesman for Remain and nor is whoever wrote that tweet. We are not collectively responsible for each other in the same way Leave supporters aren't responsible for everything and anything specific Leave supporters have done.

I think we're all individually responsible for how we treat others and behave.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mick

The division is strong, no argument, for example, opened up my Twitter app as I do every morning. A tweet from a Remainer went along lines of :

“Half the pricks who voted for brexit don’t need passport seeing as they are too scared to leave their hometown.” - tweet in reference to the news of the passport changing back after Brexit. But this is just plain rude and arrogant, do fellow Remainers condone this attitude towards Brexiteers or condemn it ?

l condemn all attitudes whether its from one side or the other which are rude , arrogant , threatening and just downright abusive.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

The division is strong, no argument, for example, opened up my Twitter app as I do every morning. A tweet from a Remainer went along lines of :

“Half the pricks who voted for brexit don’t need passport seeing as they are too scared to leave their hometown.” - tweet in reference to the news of the passport changing back after Brexit. But this is just plain rude and arrogant, do fellow Remainers condone this attitude towards Brexiteers or condemn it ?

And sadly l don't expect those divisions to heal very quickly or even heal at all.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Mick

The division is strong, no argument, for example, opened up my Twitter app as I do every morning. A tweet from a Remainer went along lines of :

“Half the pricks who voted for brexit don’t need passport seeing as they are too scared to leave their hometown.” - tweet in reference to the news of the passport changing back after Brexit. But this is just plain rude and arrogant, do fellow Remainers condone this attitude towards Brexiteers or condemn it ?

If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all. Of course it’s not helpful in any way and a lot of this kind of attitude is why leave won in the first place. Everyone needs to settle down a bit or the divisions will only get stronger. The press certainly doesn’t help either with ‘Crush the saboteurs ‘ and ‘Enemies of the people’. It’s creating a toxic atmosphere. I know that you don’t read the main stream press but a lot do.

However, how do these quotes fit in to your feelings on the matter;

EU is so full of Lying & Scheming toe rags.

Just because you want it to screw up, for your own selfish reasons, doesn't mean it will

Those rebel MPs are talking complete bollocks when they say they care about giving Parliament the sovereign power to decide, they did not give a toss about that for 40 years, while Brussels was deciding our laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...MCNEWEML6619I2

European officials have warned that Britain’s new blue passports could spell travel delays and extra paperwork rather than the enhanced freedom promised by the government.

But as the announcement divided domestic opinion along increasingly entrenched cultural battle lines, sources in Brussels pointed out that holders of any colour of British passport could see diminished travel rights after Brexit unless there were further negotiating concessions.

Would it happen in the other direction?

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...MCNEWEML6619I2

Would it happen in the other direction?

Brexiters do seem very excited over a change of colour! Thing is, if we wanted to change the colour we didn't need to leave the EU to do it. Croatia have blue passports.There are doubtless going to be bigger waits for Brits on their regular hols to EU countries, but we can pride ourselves that we've 'got our country back' and a snazzy blue passport, whilst waiting hours ! If we love our country so much why don't we holiday here ?

The Government could have changed the colour of British passports back to blue at any time regardless of Brexit, it has emerged.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a8124526.html

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Maggy J

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...MCNEWEML6619I2





Would it happen in the other direction?

Bit of a rubbish article that - the colour of the passport has no impact in the potential delays in immigration. I see there are no quotes from EU officials mentioning the colour of the passport. whether we get fast track rights as we have at present or have a visa waiver scheme or need Etias is all up in the air at present. Of course, such processes are reciprocal so if control of our borders is paramount, then it’s going to be slow going getting in to the UK for EU citizens and vice versa

We already have a blue passport in the UK - we issue them to refugees.

Yesterday, James Caan from Dragons Den, erroneously Tweeted it would cost £500 Million for the passport change, what he failed to grasp and it’s took him 24 hours to correct himself, is that the contract is up in 2019 anyway, so it was going to cost that much to renew the contract.