Brexit discussion

Originally Posted by Mick

FFS not this bullshit again...

The Russians did not influence the EU Referendum... I did NOT need any assistance from ANY foreign entity to tick 'Leave the EU' and I am damn sure that's the case for the other 17.4 Million other people who voted to leave the EU!!!

Any excuse to find and de-legitimise, a legitimate result....

I don't think they would have had a direct impact on the result. However it's still worth seeing if foreign entities are trying to damage the UK's interests Leave or Remain.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

FFS not this bullshit again...

The Russians did not influence the EU Referendum... I did NOT need any assistance from ANY foreign entity to tick 'Leave the EU' and I am damn sure that's the case for the other 17.4 Million other people who voted to leave the EU!!!

Any excuse to find and de-legitimise, a legitimate result....

I don't think any Leavers who believe in sovereignty can turn round and say it's unfair that Parliament is investigating possible overseas influence in a political campaign, especially if they believe thar campaign to be wholly innocent.

[papa smurf]

I predict that once we have exited from the EU millions of remoaners will spend the rest of their lives sulking and going to weekly therapy sessions .

[denphone]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I predict that once we have exited from the EU millions of remoaners will spend the rest of their lives sulking and going to weekly therapy sessions .

Well first of all less of the remoaners as l for one won't be sulking for the rest of my life or going to weekly therapy sessions as there are far more important things in life to care and worry about IMO..

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

How on earth do you determine what that optimum level is? You can't because this is not some planned economy without technological innovation.
Plenty of brownfield sites and closed shops that can be converted into housing. As others have explained to you - and I don't know why you turn a deaf ear to the facts - immigrants more than cover the services they use so are not a burden. Yes, a minority don't and they should be deported as legislation permits us to do.
You've not explained the process, timelines and costs behind your proposal but we're talking about a significant burden you propose to impose on British industry to solve a non-existent problem.

I was not advocating that a group of civil servants would get together and work out a formula to determine the optimum level! What are you like?

When demand and supply are more or less in balance, you will know. When we are able to meet housing needs, when the NHS is able to cope with the demands placed on it, when we can once again rely on being able to get our children into school within their catchment area - all these things and more will tell you whether we have reached an optimum level. Everyone can see that GB is creeking at the seams at the moment, and that cannot be allowed to continue.

You keep returning to this belief you seem to have that those calling for controlled immigration are dismissive of the contribution of migrants. Well, I'm certainly not, and I drew attention on an earlier post to the fantastic contribution made by the Asians who came to this country during Idi Amin's rule a few decades ago as an example.

This is not about the contribution they make, it's about the strain that over-population puts on the infrastructure of a country.

And as for your 'solution' that we should build and build and build our way out of this situation, I think you will find that most people don't want to see their countryside destroyed to accommodate more and more people. That is exactly what would happen when you run out of brownfield sites, and indeed is happening already. We have whole villages and miles of fields being destroyed in the Thames Valley to make way for huge new housing estates. We can't go on like this!

I don't see what 'burden' you think I want to see on industry. All I have said is that employers should seek to recruit people from within this country before looking overseas. We should be able to improve the prospects of our own people by training them, and that's what TM's government is all about, and is why you are seeing so much investment in apprenticeships, the new technical qualifications, etc.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I predict that once we have exited from the EU millions of remoaners will spend the rest of their lives sulking and going to weekly therapy sessions .

I think you're taking a leaf from Trump's book to try and move on from the big news of the day. Naughty smurf!

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Those texts are what guide us into the views that we hold, though - dear or otherwise.

For example (as difficult as it may be) if you saw an Eastern European immigrant who was starving on the street instead of wishing him to be deported I would hope that you would try and help him out / give him a hand.

The teaching of the belief is different and while IS may have painful, hideous and nasty teachings nothing in my faith tells me to show anything but love to my fellow human beings. In following God's laws I try do that to the best of my abilities.



Let's say that you are correct and that they feel no physical pain before 12 weeks. For me that is irrelevant to my own actions and behavior and could never see any justifications for killing a child in the womb either way. Just because he or she does not feel pain does not justify it at all, IMO. For me, it is still murder and the pain makes it even worse. Even without any pain though, the act is still wrong IMO.



Religion is not relevant? If it was not for the religious divide, Ireland would be whole / one. If that were the case it would be the biggest stumbling block taken care of.

Another thing (on that front) - how difficult is it to get major figures and media to realize the flaw of the word Brexit? Britain - presumably what the BR in Brexit stands for? That is defined as the kingdom of England merging with the Kingdom of Scotland (Wales was a part of England back then). Now the UK...that is the Island of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. So if it was truly just "Brexit" then the Ireland issue would not exist, either.

That is tripping this thing up all over the place - the Ireland issue. God's holy own Catholic nation, bordering with the protestants north of the border and there is no way round that.

See why religion is relevant? Because you are correct, it will either work, or it will not.

Without acceptance that religious accommodation is needed, it won't.

I understand where you are coming from, Chloé, but I stick by my views on this. Religion has its place, of course, and it can bring great comfort to people in coping with their lives. What I was trying to say was that to make decisions based on what the Bible, Koran, or whatever says, you are basically not taking responsibility for your own decisions. Whether one is a good or bad person, they can construe the meaning of these texts the way they want to - we all know that, don't we?

When I said that religion was not relevant, that is what I meant. Clearly the religious sensitivities in the island of Ireland must be taken into account, which is why the border issue is so sensitive.

However, having said that, I think people are bigging up the issues over the Irish border. Everyone will come to see very soon that this 'problem' is not a problem at all. It's just hype and the media is exploiting it for all it's worth because they want to keep the Brexit debate going as long as possible. The eventual solution will not exactly be rocket science.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by denphone

Well first of all less of the remoaners as l for one won't be sulking for the rest of my life or going to weekly therapy sessions as there are far more important things in life to care and worry about IMO..

Bingo first

[denphone]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Bingo first

No its the family as bingo is just a nice little outing every now and again.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

When I said that religion was not relevant, that is what I meant. Clearly the religious sensitivities in the island of Ireland must be taken into account, which is why the border issue is so sensitive.

However, having said that, I think people are bigging up the issues over the Irish border.
Everyone will come to see very soon that this 'problem' is not a problem at all. It's just hype and the media is exploiting it for all it's worth because they want to keep the Brexit debate going as long as possible. The eventual solution will not exactly be rocket science.

Neither Protestants nor Catholics want a hard border in Ireland. It's more a case of identity and not religion. Google the FT article I linked to before for a better understanding of the context.

Thinking broadly, there are only three practical solutions:
1) Remain in the EU.
2) NI to become part of the Republic
3) UK or NI has an effective customs union and parts of the single market shared with the EU.

I expect you would rule out 1) and 2) just leaving 3).

The other solutions are unacceptable to the EU so even if they were practical - which they're not - the back stop ie 3) would kick in anyway.

However, as Damien and a few others have wised up to, 3) allows the EU to seamlessly and tariff-free sell us manufactured goods but we can't sell our services to them in the same way. The UK's exports are mainly services, not manufactured goods.

Pretending this is not an issue has no merit. This is not a case of religion where praying enough or believing enough matters. These are practical issues requiring practical solutions and the menu from the EU has been written many moons ago. Grand statements from BoJo won't make the problem go away. They just reveal his ongoing ignorance of detail and disrespect for the people of Ireland.

[Taf]

All I've seen for weeks is attempts to overthrow the democratic vote by any means possible.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Actually, in the midst of struggling to govern a nation of non believers in such a way shows that his religious principle is unmovable, right?

Not like he gains much from it (politically speaking) so it goes to show that he believes what he says, he means it and it does not matter whether it is unpopular or not.

Would you rather that he ignore his views and pretend to hide them?

So? Those of us who have faith in our life do not use it for the purpose of making an objective point. We believe what we believe and irregardless of how it may or may not be ridiculed, we believe it none the less.

Again, he won't care - comes back to this EU stuff. When we get up to the gates you think that Saint Peter is really going to care what we did about the bill to leave and referendum?

JRM will not care one hoot if his political career is toast. He is a rich man who is only involved in politics for other people...he isn't doing this for himself

His religious principles, unless he wants to move us to a theocratic state, would be subordinate to his duty to represent the UK population as a whole. For example, as a Catholic, he would be against contraception. Should he propose a bill to ban contraception? No of course not.

You say he is a "rich man who is only involved in politics for other people...he isn't doing this for himself" Total rubbish. I know of no politician now and few in the past that are not in politics, at some level, for themselves whether that be vanity, power, wealth, etc.

To deploy the Chocolate Teapot, I doubt JRM would find himself at the Pearly Gates:

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Matthew 19:23-26

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 ----------

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I predict that once we have exited from the EU millions of remoaners will spend the rest of their lives sulking and going to weekly therapy sessions .

Maybe they could use the sessions vacated by the Brextremists? I mean after 40+ years of moaning, you would have thought that they would be more well adjusted by now.

[Dave42]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I predict that once we have exited from the EU millions of remoaners will spend the rest of their lives sulking and going to weekly therapy sessions .

I predict the Brextremists are first ones to moan when country is much worse off

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Dave42

I predict the Brextremists are first ones to moan when country is much worse off

Except that we won't be worse off because the customs issue will be shown to be the nonsense it is, we will gain the ability to forge our own trade deals, we will have a tariff free deal with the EU (that nice Mr Barnier has already conceded that), so there will be more trade, not less, and we will no longer be contributing to the EU to boot.

Where you and other naysayers get the idea we will be poorer, is frankly beyond me.

---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:46 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Neither Protestants nor Catholics want a hard border in Ireland. It's more a case of identity and not religion. Google the FT article I linked to before for a better understanding of the context.

Thinking broadly, there are only three practical solutions:
1) Remain in the EU.
2) NI to become part of the Republic
3) UK or NI has an effective customs union and parts of the single market shared with the EU.

I expect you would rule out 1) and 2) just leaving 3).

The other solutions are unacceptable to the EU so even if they were practical - which they're not - the back stop ie 3) would kick in anyway.

However, as Damien and a few others have wised up to, 3) allows the EU to seamlessly and tariff-free sell us manufactured goods but we can't sell our services to them in the same way. The UK's exports are mainly services, not manufactured goods.

Pretending this is not an issue has no merit. This is not a case of religion where praying enough or believing enough matters. These are practical issues requiring practical solutions and the menu from the EU has been written many moons ago. Grand statements from BoJo won't make the problem go away. They just reveal his ongoing ignorance of detail and disrespect for the people of Ireland.

Nor do I want a hard border with Ireland. Frankly, Andrew, you need to start thinking outside the box and stop arguing that the sky is about to fall in. We will not remain within the customs union once the implementation period runs out. There would be absolutely no point in Brexit if that were to be the case.

Ask Mick, he knows about these things!

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Except that we won't be worse off because the customs issue will be shown to be the nonsense it is, we will gain the ability to forge our own trade deals, we will have a tariff free deal with the EU (that nice Mr Barnier has already conceded that), so there will be more trade, not less, and we will no longer be contributing to the EU to boot.

Where you and other naysayers get the idea we will be poorer, is frankly beyond me.

Prove that we will not be poorer? as even most Brexiteers have said we will be worse off financially.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:05 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Nor do I want a hard border with Ireland. Frankly, Andrew, you need to start thinking outside the box and stop arguing that the sky is about to fall in. We will not remain within the customs union once the implementation period runs out. There would be absolutely no point in Brexit if that were to be the case.

Ask Mick, he knows about these things!

He has a opinion just like you , l and everybody else.