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A Duty To Die?
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Old 28-02-2010, 02:35   #61
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Re: A Duty To Die?

seem very clear to me unless you can show that the person had made their own mind up and you have no financial gain to make ( this can be avoided if they really have made up their mind by giving money they have to those they wish to have it before doing it ) you risk prosecution for breaking the law


i don't see how that is unfair or can be used to further a cause by any one religious or other wise
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Old 29-04-2010, 00:37   #62
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Very dignified.....

Scores of urns containing human ashes have been found dumped in a lake near the Swiss suicide clinic Dignitas.

One estimate puts the number discovered 30ft down on the bed of Lake Zurich at 300 or more.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...7243887795H556


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Old 29-04-2010, 05:47   #63
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Consider this.
A 20 yr old is involved in an accident and his spinal cord is severed. The only thing keeping him alive is a respirator, his brain functions are undamaged, he is unable to communicate yet his sight and hearing are undamaged. On life support he can survive another 6 years or so. What life does he have? Is keeping him alive in his own interests?

Someone has a debilitating disease which takes their mental faculties and leaves them in intense pain, they are no longer of sound mind or body and cannot make the decision to end their life for themselves. Is it humane to keep them alive?

Neither scenario above would result in any compunction to end the life of the sufferer if it was a family pet, yet we balk at making the same choices for a human. The Hippocratic oath states to 'Do no harm' yet is it not harmful to subject people to conditions we would not subject an animal to? Surely these are the questions that are pertinent. If we are capable of making the choice responsibly for pets, why not for humans who are in constant pain, or debilitated to the point where there is no hope of recovery and life becomes endless suffering?

The comparison IS valid. We do not balk at the choice for those we question the sentience of, yet we do balk at the choice when the subject is human. Why? Is not a human also due the same dignity we bestow upon animals? or are we not worthy of that?
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Old 29-04-2010, 10:01   #64
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy View Post
Very dignified.....

Scores of urns containing human ashes have been found dumped in a lake near the Swiss suicide clinic Dignitas.

One estimate puts the number discovered 30ft down on the bed of Lake Zurich at 300 or more.


http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...7243887795H556


Another reason to allow and regulate it in the UK
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Old 29-04-2010, 23:18   #65
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Re: A Duty To Die?

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Originally Posted by Lord Nikon View Post
Consider this.
A 20 yr old is involved in an accident and his spinal cord is severed. The only thing keeping him alive is a respirator, his brain functions are undamaged, he is unable to communicate yet his sight and hearing are undamaged. On life support he can survive another 6 years or so. What life does he have? Is keeping him alive in his own interests?

Someone has a debilitating disease which takes their mental faculties and leaves them in intense pain, they are no longer of sound mind or body and cannot make the decision to end their life for themselves. Is it humane to keep them alive?

Neither scenario above would result in any compunction to end the life of the sufferer if it was a family pet, yet we balk at making the same choices for a human. The Hippocratic oath states to 'Do no harm' yet is it not harmful to subject people to conditions we would not subject an animal to? Surely these are the questions that are pertinent. If we are capable of making the choice responsibly for pets, why not for humans who are in constant pain, or debilitated to the point where there is no hope of recovery and life becomes endless suffering?

The comparison IS valid. We do not balk at the choice for those we question the sentience of, yet we do balk at the choice when the subject is human. Why? Is not a human also due the same dignity we bestow upon animals? or are we not worthy of that?
a very ex stream example

and nothing would stop them from having a living will

the problem in legislating for extreams is then it starts to slowly take in more than you intended

take your example yep a person who is completely aware and completely unable to communicate ( though i think that that situation will be very rare now ) and we put them down because we would do it for a pet

then once your law ios in place we get the cries of if my pet was unable to walk is incontinent etc due to old age i would put him down surely we should do this for those who cant decide who are in the same situation ?

now you are thinking of those who are old or injured

but its a small step to then say these mentally challenged people are or can be in the same situation often incontinent unable to fully comprehend what the issues are often disabled finding it hard or impossible to walk maybe they would be better off put to sleep ?

just look at abortion and how in the beginning you needed two doctors now they are pushing for nurses to be able to decide ! what was a law to protect women in a desperate situation has moved to women often just having a lifestyle choice

the law as it stands is fine

if you really believed a relative was in the situation you described there are many ways to gain the outcome you desire with out risking your liberty if you just plan properly and even if you end up before a judge in this country it is highly unlikely you would be sent to prison

but with out the law we have soon many relatives will be having their supposed loved ones telling them how hard their life is and how it would be easier to just go to sleep and no matter what safegaurds you put it prolonged suggestion will end up with those who could live happily ending it early to make it easier for their money grabbing relatives
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Old 30-04-2010, 11:46   #66
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Re: A Duty To Die?

I am sure we can stucture a law in such a way that it cannot be misused and allows adults the right to die with dignity at a time of their choosing if they have an incurable condition. Life is not all important if the quality of it is non existent and the way we allow some people to live on life support sometimes for many years is plain wrong. In my town we had a case where a mother for thirty years was going to visit her son every single day after he was in an accident and went into a persistent vegatitive state despite him having a so called living will long long before most people had ever heard of them much less had one. What purpose was there in maintaining him for all those years with absolutely no quality of life and yet his living will was not honoured he was technically alive and therefore that was all that mattered.

We have to get a little more realistic in dealing with this and allow people properly monitored to be able to make such decisions about their own life and when that life should come to an end. No one is or ever will advocate wholesale euthanasia in an uncontrolled way but simply saying that life is life is no longer any good. Personally if i was diagnosed with something like alzheimers i would like to be able to choose to die before all the memorys of me as i am were replaced with memorys of what i would become but as it stands right now i cannot and anyone helping me would pay for it.
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Old 30-04-2010, 20:35   #67
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Can they not introduce something like the Doner card,( No jokes about kebabs please ) for people who wish to euthanise if the conditions are correct?
Something along the lines of D.N.R on medical or hospital records?
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Old 30-04-2010, 20:45   #68
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Euthanasia would have some people just waiting to use it to defraud and deceive. There's plenty of morally-bankrupt people out there rubbing their hands at benefiting financially from this.

It's a tough choice but keep it banned from the UK at all costs.
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Old 30-04-2010, 20:54   #69
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Re: A Duty To Die?

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Originally Posted by budwieser View Post
Can they not introduce something like the Doner card,( No jokes about kebabs please ) for people who wish to euthanise if the conditions are correct?
Something along the lines of D.N.R on medical or hospital records?
I've been thinking about getting DNR inked on my left wrist, where my watch would cover it day to day....
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Old 30-04-2010, 22:00   #70
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Russ it would have to be structured in such a way that the vast majority of people like those you describe couldn't do it, but i think we do have to acknowledge that if people want to die with dignity and have a condition which is not curable they should be able to do so without going abroad. If it ever gets used by people of low moral or ethical standing then implement a very harsh custodial sentence for those people when they are found guilty of it. But to deny all people what i feel is a basic right because of a minority **** element is not fair at all. I like the idea of a voluntary card people could apply for and register in good times and i would certainly be happy to carry one of them
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Old 30-04-2010, 22:02   #71
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Re: A Duty To Die?

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Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
Russ it would have to be structured in such a way that the vast majority of people like those you describe couldn't do it,
So what's the difference between the measures you say would be needed and insurance fraud? If there were ways to ensure systems weren't abused then they'd be applied to all walks of life.
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Old 01-05-2010, 00:19   #72
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Re: A Duty To Die?

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So what's the difference between the measures you say would be needed and insurance fraud? If there were ways to ensure systems weren't abused then they'd be applied to all walks of life.
Quite easily Russ. Anyone who wants to pre-book (can't think of a better way to describe it right now) their assisted suicide would speak to a panel of experts. The experts would have access to the applicants medical records, and any other relevant information. They would listen, advise and help the applicant understand the process.... If everything seemed cosher, then the applicant would be free to have the assisted suicide take place at a time of their choosing. That would mean that tragic cases of people being kept alive by machines, for years on end without their loved ones being able to have closure, on what many would consider an already dead loved one would stop.... There is nothing moral, or ethical about forced treatment for brain-dead or severely brain-damaged individuals. Keeping people alive, when they may well prefer to be assisted to die given the choice is by far the more ethical and moral thing to do....

The fact that the arguments against legalising assisted suicide are those warning of the baser urges for personal gain from family. I'm more inclined to think that it's a deep seated religious dogma that makes people object to assisted suicide, or living wills that must be legally enforced. If religious people believe that all human life is sacred, and that suffering is good for the soul, then thats fine. But I'd prefer it if the religious objectors where more honest, and kept their beliefs to themselves and stopped projecting onto others. Personally I accepted my mortality many years ago, and as such don't particularly fear death. I know that most likely dying will suck ass in a big way, but I'd rather have to option of being helped out, rather than being forced to lie in a bed, crapping into a bag, and being fed through a tube in my nose.... Rather a bit of dignity, than a pointless, pityful existance because someone else objects to a fellow human dying at a time of their own choosing....
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Old 01-05-2010, 01:10   #73
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing View Post
I am sure we can stucture a law in such a way that it cannot be misused and allows adults the right to die with dignity at a time of their choosing if they have an incurable condition. Life is not all important if the quality of it is non existent and the way we allow some people to live on life support sometimes for many years is plain wrong. In my town we had a case where a mother for thirty years was going to visit her son every single day after he was in an accident and went into a persistent vegatitive state despite him having a so called living will long long before most people had ever heard of them much less had one. What purpose was there in maintaining him for all those years with absolutely no quality of life and yet his living will was not honoured he was technically alive and therefore that was all that mattered.

We have to get a little more realistic in dealing with this and allow people properly monitored to be able to make such decisions about their own life and when that life should come to an end. No one is or ever will advocate wholesale euthanasia in an uncontrolled way but simply saying that life is life is no longer any good. Personally if i was diagnosed with something like alzheimers i would like to be able to choose to die before all the memorys of me as i am were replaced with memorys of what i would become but as it stands right now i cannot and anyone helping me would pay for it.

i seriously doubt that you could as anything you do wont be able to stop those who can from pressurizing people into going to where ever you need to go to register that they want to do this

you can already end your life with help as long as that help will in no way benefit from your death or be in a position to persuade you to do it

---------- Post added at 00:10 ---------- Previous post was at 00:07 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl of Bronze View Post
Quite easily Russ. Anyone who wants to pre-book (can't think of a better way to describe it right now) their assisted suicide would speak to a panel of experts. The experts would have access to the applicants medical records, and any other relevant information. They would listen, advise and help the applicant understand the process.... If everything seemed cosher, then the applicant would be free to have the assisted suicide take place at a time of their choosing. That would mean that tragic cases of people being kept alive by machines, for years on end without their loved ones being able to have closure, on what many would consider an already dead loved one would stop.... There is nothing moral, or ethical about forced treatment for brain-dead or severely brain-damaged individuals. Keeping people alive, when they may well prefer to be assisted to die given the choice is by far the more ethical and moral thing to do....

The fact that the arguments against legalising assisted suicide are those warning of the baser urges for personal gain from family. I'm more inclined to think that it's a deep seated religious dogma that makes people object to assisted suicide, or living wills that must be legally enforced. If religious people believe that all human life is sacred, and that suffering is good for the soul, then thats fine. But I'd prefer it if the religious objectors where more honest, and kept their beliefs to themselves and stopped projecting onto others. Personally I accepted my mortality many years ago, and as such don't particularly fear death. I know that most likely dying will suck ass in a big way, but I'd rather have to option of being helped out, rather than being forced to lie in a bed, crapping into a bag, and being fed through a tube in my nose.... Rather a bit of dignity, than a pointless, pityful existance because someone else objects to a fellow human dying at a time of their own choosing....
you can already stop your self being kept alive that way by putting it on record you don't want extraordinary measures taken to save or prolong your life

and my stance is nothing to do with relgion
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Old 01-05-2010, 11:05   #74
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Re: A Duty To Die?

You can use the misuse argument for everythig but that doesn't stop us implementing many things that benefit the majority i don't see the difference in this issue. Not sure how someone being alone at a time they make whatever choice can be pressured into something or for the process to be done over a period of time with independent people questioning the person i am sure we can make the law as safe as it can be.

While there may be ways to end your life and get help in doing it the fear that those who help may suffer legally is very off putting for many. You may not get the choice on when and how you enter this world but once you prove your a competent adult that has thought the metter through i believe you should be able to choose how you leave this world.
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Old 01-05-2010, 14:36   #75
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Re: A Duty To Die?

Surely a simple '5 majority' rule would prevent spurious usage.
5 doctors each have to give a report on the patient's condition, if a majority agree that the condition is
1) Permanent
2) Causing distress TO THE PATIENT
3) No treatment possible for the long term alleviation of the symptoms

Then the termination may go ahead, if the above criteria can not be met then there is no justification, if less than 3 doctors agree, then there can be no justification.

Simple enough
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