Black Lives Matter

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm not sure Britain needs to understand racial inequality in the USA. I'd say Americans do.

Given the deep influence American culture has on ours ... we absolutely do.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

Err, no, that’s the equality BLM UK claims to want, at work. BLM UK campaigning and expressing its views ... great. People outside of their client group being told to either agree and approve of both message and method, or else be silent ... not great.

I’m happy for any group in the U.K. to campaign on whatever they want, right up to the point where they start destroying the fabric of the towns and cities we all share and assaulting those whose job is to maintain our safety and order.

I’ve kept out of this thread so far because I really don’t have time for the pointless, circular shouting past each other that it has been from the outset. Had I contributed before now I’d probably simply have pointed out that the claim “Black lives matter” does not mean therefore that white lives do not matter. However, it is apparent that there are those on the fringe who are all too willing to bleat “white privilege” at any opinion they disagree with but lack the intellectual capacity to counter. For some people it actually starts to look like “Black Lives Matter” does mean “white lives don’t matter”. And that’s a shame, because I’m quite sure that’s not what the original intention of the campaign in the US was.

A significant lack of the population don't know or want to know what 'White Privilege' actually is. Perhaps they're more lacking the intellectual capacity?

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:50 ----------

Originally Posted by ceedee

As far as I can see, BLM in the US or UK have never claimed to seek equality or claimed that everyone must agree or be silent.

And many have pointed out that 'All Houses Matter' but it's the one that's on fire right now that requires urgent attention, not the ones around it that aren't.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in the white community is welcome to form and express any opinion they see fit but telling black people what their movement "should do" crosses a line into 'white privilege'.

You may not have a problem with that but, I suspect, both BLM in the US and UK will.

This ^^^^^

Originally Posted by ceedee

As far as I'm concerned, anyone in the white community is welcome to form and express any opinion they see fit but telling black people what their movement "should do" crosses a line into 'white privilege'.

Which are just fancy words for suggesting some opinions weigh more than others, or some ought perhaps to be heard more or less than others. Which, ironically, is a great deal of what BLM is protesting against. Telling a movement what it “should do” is still just an opinion. You can either deal with it, or shout it down. As far as I can see, the claim of “white privilege” is commonly used as an intellectually weak means of shouting down.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Chris

Which are just fancy words for suggesting some opinions weigh more than others, or some ought perhaps to be heard more or less than others. Which, ironically, is a great deal of what BLM is protesting against. Telling a movement what it “should do” is still just an opinion. You can either deal with it, or shout it down. As far as I can see, the claim of “white privilege” is commonly used as an intellectually weak means of shouting down.

When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Again the assumptions there. The issue that BLM and other organisations are raising in the US are about the culture within the police and other state and federal institutions. I don't believe anyone has said it's white police only, but a lot of the issues come from white police as the segregation and racism that plagues the US come from Americans with a European background for the most part.

It's the built in assumption that if you are black, you are immediately a threat, or require heavier handed tactics than if you're white. It's completely possible for someone from a BAME background to hold those views due to the environment they're in.

And as you brought up Jamaica - then that's also being raised as part of the current protests:
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/...9?profile=1373

And about your 'more white people than black are killed by the police', that's true, but that's because there are more white people than black people in the US. This is the statistic you should be looking at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-ethnicity-us/

That is a major generalisation. Many of the incidents do not involve violence or resistance on the part of those being arrested, and statistics that I can find do not back up the assumptions that black people being arrested are always more prepared for violence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

The issues that the black and other minority communities can face is that the US police will approach a situation with an assumption that escalates the situation. Traffic stops with guns drawn for instance. It can be different elsewhere but built-in assumptions are not unique to the US.

Resisting arrest doesn't only mean violently resisting. It can also mean just not coming quietly and having to be forced. What else are the police expected to to do? Just let them go?

The central point about countries such as Jamaica is that it emphasises that it is clearly NOT a White v Black issue. Looking around the world also emphasises the Black people do seem to be more violent and aggressive.

Sexual offences and murder rates have risen significantly in South Africa over the past year, according to new official crime figures.Murders recorded by the police have been rising every year for the last decade, and sexual offences including rape have risen 4.6% this year.

...
In that year, there were 15,554 recorded murders. By 2018-19, this figure had increased to 21,022.
That averages out to about 58 murders a day.

Anyone remember the "necklacing"? Types filled with petrol placed around people necks and set alight? Those attacks were aimed at other non-white people.

The practice dates back to the 1980s, when it became the punishment of choice among supporters of the African National Congress (ANC) for alleged collaborators with the apartheid regime - though the ANC leadership said it did not condone it. It was also used against common criminals.

UK, Independent Police Complaints. Commission report on deaths in custody.

Ninety per cent of the deceased in our sample
were male, 76% were White, 7% were Black, 5%
were Asian, 2% were Mixed race, and 1% were
Chinese/other ethnicity (the ethnicity of 9% of the
sample was not stated).
...
Twenty-nine per cent of the sample were involved
in a struggle or violence on arrest, or while in
custody or hospital. Forty-two per cent were
handcuffed either on arrest, or while in custody or
hospital. Twenty-six per cent (87 people) were
physically restrained by officers on arrest, during
transportation or while in custody or hospital.
...
Of the 87 people who were physically restrained by
officers, just under half were arrested for public
order or drugs offences.
...
For 16 people (5%), cause of death was classed as
restraint-related (either primary or secondary
cause of death). Of these deaths 12 people were
White, three were Black and one was Asian. For
four of the 16 people, cause of death was also
classed as positional asphyxia.
...
Fifty six people in the study had some link to drugs
associated with their case. They were significantly
more likely to be younger (aged 18-34 years) and a
higher proportion were from BME groups.

White people have also been killed by having to be restrained.

Eg

The family of a man who died after being restrained face down by officers has accused police of being “arrogant and evasive”, after an inquest jury found that Sussex police’s neglect contributed to his death.
The family of Duncan Tomlin, 32, have fought a five-year battle over his death in 2014. After their partial victory at the inquest they are facing a legal bill of up to £7,000, the Guardian understands.

The police don't restrain people just for the sake of it. They'd much rather you came quietly and peacefully, and without having to be chased.
Switzerland

The police version of events was that, as Chukwu resisted deportation, it was necessary to hold him face down on the ground and handcuff him, with his hands placed behind his back. A final autopsy report states that Chukwu’s death by suffocation was provoked by the position in which he was placed. It points out that Chukwu was highly agitated and that, in a struggle that lasted for several minutes, Chukwu’s physical exertion may have completely drained his oxygen supply. The fact that his hands were then cuffed behind his back, placed him in a position in which it was hard to breathe. And the partial weight of one of the officers on his thorax was a further hindrance to his respiratory system.

So it might have been a (non-white?) officer on his chest, not his neck that caused the problems in the US case. Deportations are a specific example of where people get aggressive, even at the late stage of being on the plane.

Grime star Stormzy has opened up about a horrific past incident where he was stabbed three times.
...
‘I will never forget. I was explaining, “I got stabbed here, there, there”. They had faces of horror — and that’s when it dawned on me. Where I come from is mad. Of course it’s shocking I’ve been stabbed. Of course it shouldn’t be normal.’

Labour MP Diane Abbott had to send her son away to a private school to get away from other black kids.

I knew what could happen to my son if he was sent to the wrong school and got in with the wrong crowd.
I realised they were subjected to peer *pressure and when that happens it’s very hard for a mother to save her son.
Once a black boy is lost to the world of gangs it’s very hard to get them back and I was genuinely very fearful of what could happen.

Trevor Philips on Question Time

The woman's shocking admission came as the BBC One show's panelists discussed the steady increase in street crime, particularly involving knives and what more can be done to stop the epidemic.
...

The Labour Party member and former chairman of Commission for Equality and Human Rights, said: "It is young black men who are dying and by the way young black men doing the killing."

...
"This is not an accidental thing, what is happening is young people are being hunted down by packs of other people," he said.
"They are being stabbed. And aside from the ones who are dying, there are hundreds of people in this city who are being stabbed."
Going on to paint a very disturbing picture, he said offenders are now stabbing youths "in the anus so they have to wear colostomy bags", adding: "This is vicious and out of control."

The central thing is that where somewhere is dangerous to be, that is likely to be because of Black people, and in the US also Hispanic. That really is completely undeniable, no matter how much certain people are determined to deny it.


In the US, police have been killed at simple traffic stops, by people of various colours(ie Black, White, etc). They approach with guns drawn for everybody. It is a FACT, that certain groups of whatever race, are more likely to be violent. Even within a particular race, certain individuals eg elderly, will be treated more lightly. The core issue ISN'T race, but likelihood to be violent. Eg if people wearing blue T-shirts started becoming more violent, then anybody wearing a blue T-shirt would understandably have to be treated with more caution, and with fear of injury to the police officer. Making false assumptions that everybody is "cute and fluffy" gets police officers killed.

In 2017 two thirds of knife crime offenders under 25 in London were black or minority ethnic, according to the Mayor of London’s Office for Policing and Crime.

Who are Police officers going to be more wary of? Why do you think they wear anti-stab vests? Not as a fashion item. The situation in the US for the Police is much worse.

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:58 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.

Really? Where do FACTS come into it?

[Mythica]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

to take your points in order.

1) There have several deaths in police custody of black people where excessive force has played a significant part in the death of a suspect. Look it up

2) Your opinion is detracting from the crux of the issue. It doesn't matter what the movement is called. the important part is the objective. I don't see BLM in the US complaining about people in the UK or other parts of the world using BLM. So why is it so important to you?

If you think saying someone is better than me is going to cause me to stop debating then I'm sorry you're wrong. If that wasn't the aim then i don't really see why you would choose to post a petty attempt at an insult.

Now, would you like to stop with the poor attempts at insults and use the significant intelligence you posses to engage in the important part of the issue?

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------




Why would 'All lives matter' have been a better slogan? Don't you think that detracts the focus from where it needs to be?

The focus needs to be on equality, so no, it fits perfect.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by nomadking

</snip>

[/COLOR]
Really? Where do FACTS come into it?

Are you saying that they don't know the motives of their own movements and that you know better?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Given the deep influence American culture has on ours ... we absolutely do.

I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Mythica

The focus needs to be on equality, so no, it fits perfect.

Really? Show me where the white population are being met by systemic racism?

As a global population we're not starting from a level playing field. Therefore efforts have to be focused on the worst affected areas first. which right now is the Black community

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.

We're ahead on the police side of things for a couple of reasons

1) Less armed police
2) Unionisation of the police in the UK has nowhere near the power that it holds in the US

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

A significant lack of the population don't know or want to know what 'White Privilege' actually is.

Well the stage is yours, enlighten us and Ceedee because he/she obviously has no idea either.

---------- Post added at 12:13 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

When it comes to the Black Lives Matter movement, Black opinions on it do matter more than non blacks.

Not really, no opinion matters more from anyone, because it's just an opinion that can be listened to or ignored. No one is obligated to act on an opinion no matter who gives it.

Originally Posted by jfman

I'd place us ahead of the USA on this, but wouldn't be complacent enough to say we don't have a problem - our history shows we definitely do.

I agree. However this weekend’s protests were triggered by a current situation in the USA. It would have been useful to allow that to generate some understanding over here, of the situation over there. Instead, the nature of some of the protests over here has ensured no fresh understanding of either British or American race relations issues. I think that’s not entirely surprising seeing as the British protests weren’t triggered by a specific British incident, and so were never going to have the same clear focus as has been more typical of events in the USA.

[Mythica]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Really? Show me where the white population are being met by systemic racism?

As a global population we're not starting from a level playing field. Therefore efforts have to be focused on the worst affected areas first. which right now is the Black community

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------



We're ahead on the police side of things for a couple of reasons

1) Less armed police
2) Unionisation of the police in the UK has nowhere near the power that it holds in the US

You're asking a question to a point I never raised. If we want equality to be the final outcome, let's also start with equality. You can still focus on certain issues without having to have slogans that single out a certain group.

Originally Posted by Paul

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

So mainly peaceful protests marred by idiots, as usual.

The Slave Trader Statue of Edward Colston, should have been removed from Bristol a long time ago. That said, I do not agree with the vandalism that took place to remove it yesterday.

It needed to be removed by consent of the local Bristol people.

Those cretins who spray painted Winston Churchill's Memorial Statue in London by crossing out his name and then inserting with graffiti "was a racist", clearly need a lesson in history and on his victory of "the other guy", on beating Hitler, probably the most racist and fascist character, in human history.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well the stage is yours, enlighten us and Ceedee because he/she obviously has no idea either.

This is the first time that I've even started to move into the subject area of white privilege because it's a viscous area. It's very important however that we understand that the term 'white privilege' is not a synonym from racist.

So, as a bright person why don't you educate yourself? Start with the invisible backpack

Again, you're always trying with the snide little comments and insults.You really should stop, Your attempts at sneering at individuals whom you believe to be inferior to you detract from your articulate arguments

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

Originally Posted by Mythica

You're asking a question to a point I never raised. If we want equality to be the final outcome, let's also start with equality. You can still focus on certain issues without having to have slogans that single out a certain group.

You focus resources where the need is greatest. If you don't get that then I don't know how else to explain it to you.

---------- Post added at 12:30 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

Originally Posted by Mick

The Slave Trader Statue of Edward Colston, should have been removed from Bristol a long time ago. That said, I do not agree with the vandalism that took place to remove it yesterday.

It needed to be removed by consent of the local Bristol people.

Those cretins who spray painted Winston Churchill's Memorial Statue in London by crossing out his name and then inserting with graffiti "was a racist", clearly need a lesson in history and on his victory of "the other guy", on beating Hitler, probably the most racist and fascist character, in human history.

Can we stop agreeing on things please

On the Churchill side of things, The protestors reaction was completely over the top. HOWEVER Churchill has had racist statements attributed to him. & this is what i think the protestors latched onto (incorrectly)

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

On the Churchill side of things, The protestors reaction was completely over the top. HOWEVER Churchill has had racist statements attributed to him. & this is what i think the protestors latched onto (incorrectly)

If this is the criteria for historical displays there will be literally no history figure capable of being displayed in this nation. Not Churchhill, not Henry the 8th, not Tony Blair.

Please be very careful about the precedents that are going to be set here.