Black Lives Matter

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Good stat, and that does show a disparity. If the arrest rate for Black was high and conviction rate high, that would suggest the arrest rate is justified.

But as it is the conviction rate is lower than for white, which suggests the arrest rate per 1000 is possibly disproportionately high?

---------- Post added at 20:55 ---------- Previous post was at 20:49 ----------



Black U.K. citizens are not in fear of their life from the U.K. police.

They may be pissed off with Thevpolice, and feel oppressed, targeted even. But their “lives” are not In danger. Therefore there is no correlation with USA movement. It is not valid

Their lives are more in danger from others in their community, they should protest about that.

Black lives matter is not about fear of being killed by the police.It is about police brutality (which has led to deaths) and systemic racism. Why an intelligent person such as yourself is getting hung up on the name rather than focusing on the issue is beyond me.

And who are you to say a) what black people feel ? B) decide what black People should protest about ?

The most recent statistics from the Home Office and Ministry of Justice show:
In 2018-19, black people were more than nine times as likely to be stopped and searched by police as white people.

They were over three times as likely to be arrested as white people.

They were more than five times as likely to have force used against them by police as white people. of course the question is was it justified?

[BenMcr]

Here's some other stats to think about:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...nfographic.pdf

White defendants consistently had the highest guilty plea rate since 2012.

White defendants consistently had the highest conviction ratio for indictable offences over the last 5 years (with the exception of 2015).

And yet

White defendants have had a consistently lower average custodial sentence length for indictable offences than all other ethnic groups since 2014.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

No-one said they are exactly the same, but that article is not arguing there isn't an issue:

I’ve been entirely consistent throughout this discussion.

Never, have I said there isn’t an issue.

BLM is an American invention to protest against state violence Against or inaction by the state on those that commit violence to the American black community.

That quite simply does not transpose here.

My point of black young men being more likely to be killed by black young men, Especially within London, again is totally valid.

Originally Posted by Paul

Nice sweeping statement, which I'm sure is completely untrue.
I'll bet there are countless 'white people' who are considered "less than others", and I suppose all this fuss about mental health is complete nonsense ?

Yes being a woman has had it's problems with worth...white and black and Asian.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52954305

So mainly peaceful protests marred by idiots, as usual.

A slave trader's statue in Bristol has been torn down and thrown into the harbour during a second day of anti-racism protests across the UK.

Protests were generally peaceful throughout the day, with aerial footage showing thousands of demonstrators flooding the roads outside the US embassy in Vauxhall, south London before marching towards Parliament Square and Downing Street.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Pierre

My point of black young men being more likely to be killed by black young men, Especially within London, again is totally valid.

I'm not denying there is an issue within London, but it's not a pattern that holds throughout the rest of the UK.
https://news.sky.com/story/black-mur...-v-uk-11443656

Numbers for the rest of the country painted a different picture, with murder victim and suspect figures more or less proportionate to the make up of the population.

Nationally, 3% of the population is black, 5% of murder victims are black and 13% of murder suspects are black.

White people make up 86% of the country, 89% of the UK's murder victims and 81% of its murder suspects.

So it's not 'more likely' as specific issue within the black community or indeed 'black young men'. It is specific issues within London, which warrants solving.

However whatever the reasons for the issues that happening within London, it doesn't excuse the issues that are happening when the BAME communities interact with the police and the justice system within the UK. And those issue are part of the Black Lives Matter demonstrations now happening.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Black lives matter is not about fear of being killed by the police.It is about police brutality (which has led to deaths)

And that has happened in the UK how many times?

and systemic racism. Why an intelligent person such as yourself is getting hung up on the name rather than focusing on the issue is beyond me.

Because state oppression, killing or lack of bringing to justice those that kill Black people is not an issue in the UK as it is in the USA.

And who are you to say a) what black people feel ? B) decide what black People should protest about ?

I have a view and I will express it, who are you to try and shout me down?

The most recent statistics from the Home Office and Ministry of Justice show:
In 2018-19, black people were more than nine times as likely to be stopped and searched by police as white people.

They were over three times as likely to be arrested as white people.

Already been through this with Ben, he’s better at than you btw, and it seemed evident that there was disparity. Which might be annoying, upsetting, frustrating and it needs to be looked at.........but nobody dies.

They were more than five times as likely to have force used against them by police as white people. of course the question is was it justified?

I don’t know, do you?

---------- Post added at 23:19 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I'm not denying there is an issue within London, but it's not a pattern that holds throughout the rest of the UK.
https://news.sky.com/story/black-mur...-v-uk-11443656

Not sure what you’re driving at then? Are you suggesting that white youths are killing black youths across the rest of the U.K o/s of London?

And what that article you posted goes into detail about is the victims, not the perpetrators - which is not the whole story.

So it's not 'more likely' as specific issue within the black community or indeed 'black young men'. It is specific issues within London, which warrants solving.

However whatever the reasons for the issues that happening within London, it doesn't excuse the issues that are happening when the BAME communities interact with the police and the justice system within the UK. And those issue are part of the Black Lives Matter demonstrations now happening.

The whole, “move along here, nothing to see, everything is fine in the black community, we’re all great, oppressed by the white man but we have no fundamental issues ourselves that we need to sort out, no all our troubles have been forced upon us.....rhetoric is tired, more so it is unhelpful, and untrue, but rather than look inwards as well as outwards, will help no one.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Pierre

And what that article you posted goes into detail about is the victims, not the perpetrators - which is not the whole story.

Almost half of murder victims - as well as suspects - were black despite the ethnic group accounting for just 13% of London's population. White people in London make up 60% of the population, but only account for 35% of murder victims and 24% of murder suspects.

Nationally, 3% of the population is black, 5% of murder victims are black and 13% of murder suspects are black. White people make up 86% of the country, 89% of the UK's murder victims and 81% of its murder suspects.

Originally Posted by Pierre

The whole, “move along here, nothing to see, everything is fine in the black community, we’re all great, oppressed by the white man but we have no fundamental issues ourselves that we need to sort out, no all our troubles have been forced upon us.....rhetoric is tired, more so it is unhelpful, and untrue, but rather than look inwards as well as outwards, will help no one.

Again, no-one is saying that that I'm aware of, and I'd be interesting to see the links that you've found that says that.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

Again, no-one is saying that that I'm aware of, and I'd be interesting to see the links that you've found that says otherwise.

Thanks.......doesn’t that back up my point?

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Thanks.......doesn’t that back up my point?

I don't understand the relevance of the two. Unresolved issues within a community doesn't exclude campaigning to resolve issues that affect a community from outside it.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by BenMcr

I don't understand the relevance of the two. Unresolved issues within a community doesn't exclude campaigning to resolve issues that affect a community from outside it.

Again, I’ve been completely consistent.

They can campaign, I wholeheartedly support them to campaign for issues, such as young black males killing young black males, predominantly in London.

But that is not what BLM are about, BLM is about state killing Blacks or the state failing to prosecute and convict Those that kill blacks. Which is a US issue not a U.K. issue.

[ceedee]

Thank you to all those who keep trying to point out that us white people insisting that we can decide what, when and how black people should express their anger and frustration at centuries of arrogant, violent and discriminatory white superiority is a perfect example of the privilege we need to individually and collectively examine.

And a good place to start would be to accept that WE don't decide that BLM is about exactly the same issues in the UK as it is in the US.

[nomadking]

If the problem is with White police, then how come in "Black" countries, eg Jamaica, the figures are not exactly low. In this recent incident, 2 of the officers were not White(J Alexander Kueng and Tou Thao). Around twice as many White people as Black people, are shot and killed by Police in the US. Although there is a number classified as "unknown".

It's all about how you behave when cornered or under arrest. Most of us wouldn't face problems, as we were being arrested, because we recognise the futility of resisting and struggling. Not being under the influence of drink and/or drugs also help with that.

Anyone remember the Darcus Howe documentary, "Who you calling a ...".

---------- Post added at 03:39 ---------- Previous post was at 03:27 ----------

Originally Posted by ceedee

Thank you to all those who keep trying to point out that us white people insisting that we can decide what, when and how black people should express their anger and frustration at centuries of arrogant, violent and discriminatory white superiority is a perfect example of the privilege we need to individually and collectively examine.

And a good place to start would be to accept that WE don't decide that BLM is about exactly the same issues in the UK as it is in the US.

Certain people are going on about absolute drivel of, "Oh, it's not safe out there", and "We have a pandemic of black people dying every day", when all that is actually at the hands of black people.

[BenMcr]

Originally Posted by nomadking

If the problem is with White police, then how come in "Black" countries, eg Jamaica, the figures are not exactly low. In this recent incident, 2 of the officers were not White(J Alexander Kueng and Tou Thao). Around twice as many White people as Black people, are shot and killed by Police in the US. Although there is a number classified as "unknown".

Again the assumptions there. The issue that BLM and other organisations are raising in the US are about the culture within the police and other state and federal institutions. I don't believe anyone has said it's white police only, but a lot of the issues come from white police as the segregation and racism that plagues the US come from Americans with a European background for the most part.

It's the built in assumption that if you are black, you are immediately a threat, or require heavier handed tactics than if you're white. It's completely possible for someone from a BAME background to hold those views due to the environment they're in.

And as you brought up Jamaica - then that's also being raised as part of the current protests:
http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/...9?profile=1373

“THE police are killing our children and our brothers are killing each other. Enough is enough!” was the cry of a 70-year-old Rastafarian woman who protested outside the United States Embassy in Liguanea, St Andrew, yesterday morning.

And about your 'more white people than black are killed by the police', that's true, but that's because there are more white people than black people in the US. This is the statistic you should be looking at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-ethnicity-us/

The rate of fatal police shootings in the United States shows large difference based on ethnicity. Among Black Americans, the rate of fatal police shootings between 2015 and June 2020 stood at 30 per million of the population, while for White Americans, the rate stood at 12 fatal police shootings per million of the population.

Originally Posted by nomadking

It's all about how you behave when cornered or under arrest. Most of us wouldn't face problems, as we were being arrested, because we recognise the futility of resisting and struggling. Not being under the influence of drink and/or drugs also help with that.

Anyone remember the Darcus Howe documentary, "Who you calling a ...".

That is a major generalisation. Many of the incidents do not involve violence or resistance on the part of those being arrested, and statistics that I can find do not back up the assumptions that black people being arrested are always more prepared for violence:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

Deaths Due to Use of Lethal Force by Law Enforcement
...
Victims were majority white (52%) but disproportionately black (32%) with a fatality rate 2.8 times higher among blacks than whites. Most victims were reported to be armed (83%); however, black victims were more likely to be unarmed (14.8%) than white (9.4%) or Hispanic (5.8%) victims. Fatality rates among military veterans/active duty service members were 1.4 times greater than among their civilian counterparts.

The issues that the black and other minority communities can face is that the US police will approach a situation with an assumption that escalates the situation. Traffic stops with guns drawn for instance. It can be different elsewhere but built-in assumptions are not unique to the US.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by ceedee

Thank you to all those who keep trying to point out that us white people insisting that we can decide what, when and how black people should express their anger and frustration at centuries of arrogant, violent and discriminatory white superiority is a perfect example of the privilege we need to individually and collectively examine.

Me expressing my view, is a right, not a privilege

And a good place to start would be to accept that WE don't decide that BLM is about exactly the same issues in the UK as it is in the US.

I'm not deciding anything, we're having a discussion, and it is my view that they are not.