The energy crisis

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

too put it in the most simplest of terms it is the suppliers of the suppliers that are making the profit hahaha

Sometimes it's the suppliers, of the suppliers, of the suppliers. The producers of gas, sell it to the electricity generators, who sell the electricity to the domestic suppliers.

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Sometimes it's the suppliers, of the suppliers, of the suppliers. The producers of gas, sell it to the electricity generators, who sell the electricity to the domestic suppliers.

It wouldn't surprise me if ultimately many of the companies involved are owned by one or two companies or people ultimately if you follow the cookie trail back all the way.

[nomadking]

Originally Posted by Qtx

It wouldn't surprise me if ultimately many of the companies involved are owned by one or two companies or people ultimately if you follow the cookie trail back all the way.

So what? They are still separate companies, where one is not allowed to subsidise the other.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So what? They are still separate companies, where one is not allowed to subsidise the other.

Why not?

[Qtx]

Originally Posted by nomadking

So what? They are still separate companies, where one is not allowed to subsidise the other.

The point being the people or companies at the top of it will be making increased profits as the prices rise anyway, even if some of their companies down the pyramid are making less. Doesn't matter to them in the long run.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

You mean like the 30 or so "suppliers" that went bust in the last year or so because suppliers are clearly not making any profits.

Seems more like you are deliberately interpreting parent company profits as theirs, when they are not.

The industry is price gouging consumers, with no link to the cost of producing energy. The suppliers (essentially speculators) in the middle going bust is entirely incidental. They exist to manufacture competition in a process that doesn’t really exist, and isn’t necessary other than to give a pretence that the free market serves public utilities.

Originally Posted by jfman

The suppliers (essentially speculators) in the middle going bust is entirely incidental.

You really have lost the plot ...

I'm sure all the users and employes of those 28 companies thank you for your concern.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

The industry is price gouging consumers, with no link to the cost of producing energy. The suppliers (essentially speculators) in the middle going bust is entirely incidental. They exist to manufacture competition in a process that doesn’t really exist, and isn’t necessary other than to give a pretence that the free market serves public utilities.

I’m so glad I don’t live in your delusional world, jfman.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I’m so glad I don’t live in your delusional world, jfman.

tbf, you have your own version…

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Paul

You really have lost the plot ...

I'm sure all the users and employes of those 28 companies thank you for your concern.

I’m not sure pointing out that their users and employees are victims of inadequately regulated capitalism is the win you think it is to be honest.

---------- Post added at 18:30 ---------- Previous post was at 18:29 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I’m so glad I don’t live in your delusional world, jfman.

If you pay energy bills you absolutely live in my world, OB.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jfman

You are deliberately interpreting posts with the narrow scope of suppliers - the last actor in the supply chain - rather than considering the energy sector as a whole.

This is the actual issue for discussion: allowing the market to deliver revenue & profit from an infrastructure sector at the expense of large parts of the population.

The only good thing that will come out of this is the awareness of the level of greed & exploitation such a system delivers. The commodity traders and other players in the market literally do not care if their actions result in people going hungry and/or cold. It's all about the money. The really sad part is the number of people who will schill for these companies, players, etc. They are either are part of the system in that they directly benefit from these market changes or they are just ill informed at best, or at worse, morons.

Playing the card "but, but, they have a duty to the shareholders" is just a shallow deflection. Companies that operate in the UK, raise revenue in the UK, employ people in the UK have, at the end of the day, have a duty to the UK. In times of national extremes, they should behave accordingly. Profits should be reinvested in the company: reducing product prices, improving employee wages and investing in infrastructure.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Jaymoss

too put it in the most simplest of terms it is the suppliers of the suppliers that are making the profit hahaha

Someone said earlier Shell paid no tax in the UK in 2021 either, cake and eat it

[jfman]

Originally Posted by ianch99

This is the actual issue for discussion: allowing the market to deliver revenue & profit from an infrastructure sector at the expense of large parts of the population.

The only good thing that will come out of this is the awareness of the level of greed & exploitation such a system delivers. The commodity traders and other players in the market literally do not care if their actions result in people going hungry and/or cold. It's all about the money. The really sad part is the number of people who will schill for these companies, players, etc. They are either are part of the system in that they directly benefit from these market changes or they are just ill informed at best, or at worse, morons.

Playing the card "but, but, they have a duty to the shareholders" is just a shallow deflection. Companies that operate in the UK, raise revenue in the UK, employ people in the UK have, at the end of the day, have a duty to the UK. In times of national extremes, they should behave accordingly. Profits should be reinvested in the company: reducing product prices, improving employee wages and investing in infrastructure.

I agree with the sentiment, however the card "they have a duty to shareholders" is valid. It's not those actors that are flawed - they're acting entirely rationally. They've been handed licences to print money by Governments who sold off energy security to the highest bidder. That's what makes the model fundamentally flawed, and decades of conservative ideology and market liberalisation have come to just this.

Energy companies have no incentive to innovate, to reduce costs, to provide genuine competition against one another. It is more rational to restrict supply, move the risk to shell companies (and therefore back to Government), raise profit margins and enjoy supernormal profits at the expense of the gullible fools who fell for the myth that the private sector could replace public utilities.

This of course is not unique to the UK - however only state intervention can solve the problem.

The real fear the Tories have is once people realise the wool has been pulled over their eyes in the energy markets it's the tip of the iceberg.

[1andrew1]

Gordon Brown says energy firms unable to offer lower bills should be temporarily re-nationalised

Former PM calls for energy price cap to be scrapped and new lower prices renegotiated by government

Energy companies that cannot offer lower bills should be temporarily brought into public ownership, Gordon Brown has said, in a stark challenge to political leaders on the day Liz Truss signalled a climbdown on help for households.

Writing for the Guardian, Brown called for the energy price cap to be cancelled and for the government to negotiate new lower prices with the companies, comparing the situation to the 2009 banking crisis where some banks were temporarily nationalised to protect consumers.

He warned the time for action was slipping away and major decisions had to be made within days. “Time and tide wait for no one. Neither do crises. They don’t take holidays, and don’t politely hang fire – certainly not to suit the convenience of a departing PM and the whims of two potential successors.”

Brown said there were urgent decisions that could not wait until the end of the Tory leadership race. Those include:

• Cancelling the energy cap before the official announcement on 26 August
• Agreeing October payments for vulnerable households
• Finding urgent new supplies of gas and storage
• Voluntary energy cuts like Germany’s to prevent blackouts

He said spending should be paid in new “watertight windfall tax” on oil and gas and a new tax on the high levels of city bonuses which he said were pushing up wage inflation. Those measures could raise £15bn, he said, enough to give nearly 8 million low income families just under £2,000 each.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...e-nationalised

[TheDaddy]

I wonder how small businesses will cope, they don't have a cap and whilst everyone naturally thinks of industry I heard a corner shop owner from Glasgow saying his electric bill was now 56k per year, how can businesses like that reasonably be expected to pass that on to customers