Brexit (Old)

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are such a drama queen!

There’s still be time to change our minds if this is “done and dusted” by Christmas. So it’s a reasonable question if the markets react severely negatively- e.g. 20% drop in the stock exchange, pound drops below the euro, would it be reasonable to revisit it then?

---------- Post added at 18:48 ---------- Previous post was at 18:46 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Why post it then?

I didn’t. If you are resorting to your selective interpation of posts then stop quoting me.

No more than five years applies to General Elections. By proposed leaving day we will be almost three years in. There have been shorter Governments than that, possibly including this one (the May minority administration).

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

The losing party in a General Election is given an opportunity no more than five years from the date of the previous one to take their case to the people again.

The performance of the Government in reality is then held against the alternative proposals going forward.

This would be entirely consistent with measuring the performance of Brexit negotiations and possible outcomes all over again.

Well explain what you mean by this post then?

If that it not what you meant then this post is a total waste of words, which wouldn’t be the first time, granted.

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

selective interpation

That’s a new one, surely everybody interprets others posts subjectively. Are you suggesting I should generally interpret your posts?

No more than five years applies to General Elections. By proposed leaving day we will be almost three years in. There have been shorter Governments than that, possibly including this one (the May minority administration).

The point being that even after a general election there is a 5yr term to implement the result.

As the result of the referendum has not even been implemented yet, do you think we could be afforded the courtesy of seeing the result carried out before we vote again?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

You are assuming it’s actually possible to deliver long term and sustainable economic growth when outside he largest trading bloc on the planet, with it entirely unclear where this trade will come from and what benefits it will have.

Your proposal is equally as hypothetical as chopping someone’s hands off and suggesting they find a way to tie their shoelaces.

Indeed politicians have told you the best way to deliver economic growth and that is to remain.

I’m still unclear on any EU laws we will be “free of” that will deliver economic benefits. I asked last week and got no meaningful reply.

We will be free of EU laws made subsequent to our exit. How our freed om is used to deliver economic benefits is down to policies to be set by a competent government (if such a thing were to be possible).

As to your "chopping hands off" analogy, that is ridiculous. You too are implicitly hypothesizing that peeling away from the Internal Market leaves us unable to develop our economy. Nah.


With regard to your best to remain sentence, as I've said before, economic growth isn't the be-all and end-all of benefit. We voted leave so that we take control of our destiny. Growth may fall but the forecasts (such as they are) don't forecast negative GDP, only lower GDP. No deal (or EEA) is a price well worth paying to get away from German hegemony, French control of the discredited CAP, the Spanish veto over Gibraltar & fisheries, the perfidious Irish government, etc.

Why would you want to have anything to do with those nasties?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

We will be free of EU laws made subsequent to our exit. How our freed om is used to deliver economic benefits is down to policies to be set by a competent government (if such a thing were to be possible).

As to your "chopping hands off" analogy, that is ridiculous. You too are implicitly hypothesizing that peeling away from the Internal Market leaves us unable to develop our economy. Nah.


With regard to your best to remain sentence, as I've said before, economic growth isn't the be-all and end-all of benefit. We voted leave so that we take control of our destiny. Growth may fall but the forecasts (such as they are) don't forecast negative GDP, only lower GDP. No deal (or EEA) is a price well worth paying to get away from German hegemony, French control of the discredited CAP, the Spanish veto over Gibraltar & fisheries, the perfidious Irish government, etc.

Why would you want to have anything to do with those nasties?

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well explain what you mean by this post then?

If that it not what you meant then this post is a total waste of words, which wouldn’t be the first time, granted.

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:52 ----------



That’s a new one, surely everybody interprets others posts subjectively. Are you suggesting I should generally interpret your posts?



The point being that even after a general election there is a 5yr term to implement the result.

As the result of the referendum has not even been implemented yet, do you think we could be afforded the courtesy of seeing the result carried out before we vote again?

No. I don’t think we should be afforded that courtesy without the question being asked again due to more information being available.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

No. I don’t think we should be afforded that courtesy without the question being asked again due to more information being available.

So, to carry on the general Election analogy. When the Lib-Dems stated categorically in their manifesto that they would not increase tuition fees, but then when in government they reneged on that promise, outright lied. Surely then, as we now fully knew one of the outcomes of that election,and it was not as promised, we should have been allowed to rerun the election?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

So, to carry on the general Election analogy. When the Lib-Dems stated categorically in their manifesto that they would not increase tuition fees, but then when in government they reneged on that promise, outright lied. Surely then, as we now fully knew one of the outcomes of that election,and it was not as promised, we should have been allowed to rerun the election?

I’m quite sure they paid the price of that decision in 2015. What you are proposing is the whole country pays the price until 2040.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

I’m quite sure they paid the price of that decision in 2015. What you are proposing is the whole country pays the price until 2040.

But you offer no argument that the mechanics of the point are invalid.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Pierre

But you offer no argument that the mechanics of the point are invalid.

Your point is totally invalid. Everyone elects a party on their manifesto (generally, there will be some hardworking local MPs, and local issues). Sometimes parties fail to deliver. The public get to revisit that in (a maximum of) five years, and indeed can elect a party willing to undo any changes made in the previous five years has the right to put it in a manifesto.

You are proposing that democracy be revoked for certain issues, which is ironic really, for a democrat.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Your point is totally invalid.

no, i think you’ll find it isn’t.....i’ll Break it down for you.

Everyone elects a party on their manifesto (generally, there will be some hardworking local MPs, and local issues)

We voted on the referendum against a Remain Manifesto and a leave manifesto. The Leave manifesto won. Remain say the leave manifesto was all lies. What’s new?

Sometimes parties fail to deliver.

Leave has not yet had a chance to deliver anything. We don’t leave until next year. We won’t be able to judge if leaving was ultimately successful or a failure for a long time. I think we need many years but i’m Willing to revisit it after 5.

The public get to revisit that in (a maximum of) five years,

Fair enough, let’s revisit the referendum in March 2024, at the earliest.

and indeed elect a party willing to undo any changes made in the previous five years has the right to put it in a manifesto.

no problem, if we’re in our 5th year of recession and on our uppers then we can revisit it. Likewise a party can go to a GE at the next election on a ticket of rejoining the EU if. They think there is support for it.

You are proposing that democracy be revoked for certain issues, which is ironic really, for a democrat.

on the contrary I would like to see a bit of consistency on how the result of Democracy is applied. Is that not equitable?

[jfman]

So really we can summarise your position as Brexit at all costs, and you are absolutely terrified you will lose your dream in the next few months.

It’s not about the economy, or the best interests of the country, but about restricting freedom of movement at all costs. Being happy to have five years of recession is quite a price to pay.

At least be honest about it, I’d have slightly more respect for you.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

So really we can summarise your position as Brexit at all costs, and you are absolutely terrified you will lose your dream in the next few months.

It’s not about the economy, or the best interests of the country, but about restricting freedom of movement at all costs. Being happy to have five years of recession is quite a price to pay.

At least be honest about it, I’d have slightly more respect for you.

Originally Posted by jfman

So really we can summarise your position as Brexit at all costs,

No, just Brexit. That is what was voted for. Not interested in any adverbs or adjectives you add to the word.

and you are absolutely terrified you will lose your dream in the next few months.

nope, not my dream, as I have stated from the very beginning, I voted Remain.

The nation didn’t.

It’s not about the economy,

congratulations, for much of the country it wasn’t

or the best interests of the country,

Well that could mean anything, a subjective point. Depends what you think the best interests of the country are when you vote.

but about restricting freedom of movement at all costs.

Well to directly answer the that point, I think it was categorically established that that was what the majority of the electorate in the referendum wanted.

Being happy to have five years of recession is quite a price to pay.

not happy, also no guarantee that would be the outcome.

At least be honest about it, I’d have slightly more respect for you.

I don’t seek your respect, so don’t worry about it.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

So really we can summarise your position as Brexit at all costs, and you are absolutely terrified you will lose your dream in the next few months.

It’s not about the economy, or the best interests of the country, but about restricting freedom of movement at all costs. Being happy to have five years of recession is quite a price to pay.

<SNIP>

5 years of recession? Or reduced growth rate?

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

5 years of recession? Or reduced growth rate?

He used 5 years of recession in his example.

Why didn’t anyone tell me Michael Gove was on telly this morning using the term “no Brexit at all”? That’s him on the list.

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

Originally Posted by Pierre

Evidently I can hold a better one than you, run away then, come back when you can debate the points and arguments put to you.

Far from, but you don’t actually have a consistent or coherent argument. You voted Remain, now you want us to Leave at the soonest opportunity under the guise of democracy but denying people the right to vote on it.

You think that in 2024 we could revisit it if a party won an election on that basis, after we’ve lost our rebate and our exemption to the Euro.

I can’t argue with a point so inconsistent or incoherent. I did try. Fundamentally your thoughts are irrelevant to the processes of the next few months. I’m sure I described it previously as not an effective use of my energy, and you have reminded me why.

You move the goalposts around a single point where you want us to leave at all costs in March. Which is fine. There’s nothing more to add.

[Gavin78]

Jfman - really you sound like Corbyn, Roll out the picket signs "we shall not be moved"

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jfman

Far from, but you don’t actually have a consistent or coherent argument. You voted Remain, now you want us to Leave at the soonest opportunity under the guise of democracy but denying people the right to vote on it.

You’re not listening, or either can’t understand or refuse to understand.

Try to think jfman, thinking is so important.

I voted Remain. Leave won. Parliament voted to leave in March 2019. I merely support the democratic decisions of the electorate and the democratically elected Parliament.

Subsequently to that I only wish to see a period of time elapse for bexit to play out before it is revisited. I would prefer 10-15 years, but would live with 5 as a minimum, that’s all.

You think that in 2024 we could revisit it if a party won an election on that basis, after we’ve lost our rebate and our exemption to the Euro.

Well yes.....we would have to assess the drawbacks and benefits of rejoining at the time.

I can’t argue with a point so inconsistent or incoherent. I did try.

Try harder, I have to deal with your unique skill of not understanding any points put to you.

There’s nothing more to add.

Fair enough, I look forward to you adding nothing.