Ukraine on the verge of civil war! - Page 5

25-02-2014, 19:39

If all that was on the table was a trade deal I doubt Russia would be too bothered I think it's more the case that it will start with a trade deal and end with EU membership being offered as is the EU norm. They have shown themselves to be an organisation happy to go against original intentions UK being a prime example. Not to mention of course the favourable terms Ukraine will enjoy to deepen it's desire to get further involved in the EU Russia's heavy hand threat or the EU's insidious creep talk about rock or a hard place.

TheDaddy · 25-02-2014, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

No but then we don't have the EU sending tanks into Wales or Scotland because they didn't vote for the Tories. The vote of the Russian-friendly leader was mostly respected within the country and outside of it (even if that the outside relief was based on self-interest) and it was only after the recent moves from that Government that people reacted. Still we should respect the democratic process in the country presuming it hasn't been rigged. A new election needs to be undertaken and then we'll see where we are.

However it's simply not justifiable to deny them the right to be pro-EU for fear of upsetting the Russians. The desire some on here have for the EU to withdraw the trade agreement and make it clear they will not help or respect any desire to move closer to the Western European nations will remove that right.

Instead we have EU countries taking part in unjust conflicts so we can pinch their oil and is that a no we won't stand by and watch the country split in two, so much for democracy or is it democracy when it suits us same as always.

**Damien** · 25-02-2014, 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

If all that was on the table was a trade deal I doubt Russia would be too bothered I think it's more the case that it will start with a trade deal and end with EU membership being offered as is the EU norm. They have shown themselves to be an organisation happy to go against original intentions UK being a prime example. Not to mention of course the favourable terms Ukraine will enjoy to deepen it's desire to get further involved in the EU Russia's heavy hand threat or the EU's insidious creep talk about rock or a hard place.

Russia probably know Ukraine will move closer to the EU as the public have shown support for it. It's nothing to do with "original intentions", it's very opaque. It's not Russia's choice though.

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Instead we have EU countries taking part in unjust conflicts so we can pinch their oil and is that a no we won't stand by and watch the country split in two, so much for democracy or is it democracy when it suits us same as always.

What do you mean "so much for democracy"? You're the one arguing against it.

TheDaddy · 25-02-2014, 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Russia probably know Ukraine will move closer to the EU as the public have shown support for it. It's nothing to do with "original intentions", it's very opaque. It's not Russia's choice though.

---------- Post added at 20:25 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

What do you mean "so much for democracy"? You're the one arguing against it.

Really I thought you were when you said we wouldn't stand by and watch the country split in two

**Damien** · 25-02-2014, 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

Really I thought you were when you said we wouldn't stand by and watch the country split in two

I never said that. I said we should support the democratic will of the people of the Ukraine irrespective of if they want to join the EU, join the Russian Customs Union, or try and remain outside both camps. I also dismissed the idea of it being unfair to the east of the country because that's how Democracies work, you don't always get what you want.

That said if the country does prove unable to manage with the two differing sides then maybe the Eastern region breaking away is more logical than trapping people in a constant state of tension and conflict.

Either way it's not our choice to decide what they get. If they want the EU then the EU should support that. If they want Russia then Russia will support that. If they want to be neutral and not be in a proxy war between east and west then both sides should support that.

However at the moment Russia is/was trying to prevent the EU trade deal by back room deals with the former administration of the Ukraine. This administration has now been overthrown partly due to that. Now they should vote to decide what happens next.

25-02-2014, 21:24

Trouble is Damien your version of democracy and the version many eastern Europeans version is a little difference also there has been so much more map rewriting in eastern Europe that the complications are massively harder to work round then they are in the west even putting aside the Russian migration throughout much of the last century to create strong areas of Russian support. My biggest objection to us getting involved is simply there is too much wrong to put right on our doorstep to go off again intervening in other countries and it's the same for the eu. For many the European dream has become a nightmare spend the time and effort correcting that so that the lives of current members improve.

TheDaddy · 25-02-2014, 22:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I never said that. I said we should support the democratic will of the people of the Ukraine irrespective of if they want to join the EU, join the Russian Customs Union, or try and remain outside both camps. I also dismissed the idea of it being unfair to the east of the country because that's how Democracies work, you don't always get what you want.

That said if the country does prove unable to manage with the two differing sides then maybe the Eastern region breaking away is more logical than trapping people in a constant state of tension and conflict.

Either way it's not our choice to decide what they get. If they want the EU then the EU should support that. If they want Russia then Russia will support that. If they want to be neutral and not be in a proxy war between east and west then both sides should support that.

However at the moment Russia is/was trying to prevent the EU trade deal by back room deals with the former administration of the Ukraine. This administration has now been overthrown partly due to that. Now they should vote to decide what happens next.

I think it's entirely democratic for them to split if the vast majority of a particular area are in favour of it, you don't think Scotland isn't democratic do you?

**Damien** · 25-02-2014, 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

I think it's entirely democratic for them to split if the vast majority of a particular area are in favour of it, you don't think Scotland isn't democratic do you?

I think it is democratic for that to happen too. I just don't think it's undemocratic if they lose the (hopefully coming) election. You don't always get what you want. Ask Scotland.

TheDaddy · 25-02-2014, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

I think it is democratic for that to happen too. I just don't think it's undemocratic if they lose the (hopefully coming) election. You don't always get what you want. Ask Scotland.

Hardly democratic to keep them locked in a union when the vast majority want to leave, that's Ukraine btw, with Scotland it's just the majority of the rest of us that wants them to go

Osem · 27-02-2014, 09:14

Quote:

Ukraine's security forces have been put on alert after government buildings in the Russian-majority Crimea region were seized by armed men.

The Russian flag had been raised over both buildings in the capital, Simferopol.

The local government has said it is negotiating with the gunmen.

The seizure of the buildings comes a day after confrontations between pro-Russian separatists and supporters of Ukraine's new leaders.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26364891

richard s · 27-02-2014, 10:44

Pesky Ruskies...

**Damien** · 27-02-2014, 11:51

I like the 'surprise' part. Makes it sound fun.

Osem · 27-02-2014, 13:56

Ukrainian leader rattling back.

Quote:

Ukrainian interim President Olexander Turchynov has warned Russia against any "military aggression" in Crimea.

He said Russia's troops from Russia's Black Sea Fleet should not move outside their naval base in Sevastopol.

The warning comes after armed men seized Crimea's regional parliament and the government headquarters of the Russian-majority region.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26366700

This is all getting quite worrying.

**Damien** · 27-02-2014, 14:16

Someone needs to tell Putin the Ukraine is not his country. I still suspect they're just doing to intimidate. The consequences of Russia invading a Foreign democratic country would be too serious even for Putin to seriously contemplate.

TheDaddy · 27-02-2014, 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien

Someone needs to tell Putin the Ukraine is not his country. I still suspect they're just doing to intimidate. The consequences of Russia invading a Foreign democratic country would be too serious even for Putin to seriously contemplate.

Just like the consequences were with Georgia?