Brexit discussion

[1andrew1]

Whatever you felt you voted for if it's not deliverable then it's not deliverable.
Theresa May has had to concede many things in these negotiations and this will just be another one.
Hard Brexiters like Rees-Mogg will doubtless play the victim, blame Brussels, the BBC and anyone but themselves. The reality is this. They did not have a workable solution to the Irish border and the Government has weakened its negotiating hand by invoking Article 50 before deciding itself what it wanted from its negotiations with the EU.

I wasn't aware you've been present in the cabinet meetings all this time and these negotiations have been made harder then they needed to be because of the attitude the EU had going into this. I know you prefer to attribute all blame on the UK government and let the EU off scott free but despite your opinion there is growing opinion that the problem is the EU and it's desire to punish the UK. They are not doing it out of any real dislike for the UK they are doing it to try and prevent other members taking our route in the future. When it suits the EU it's happy to forget it's rules to achieve a desired outcome and the irish border issue is solvable and could be made to work but it takes two willing to agree on the solution.

As i said if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude but theresa may having weakened her position and being a remainer at heart doesn't have the stomach to do it. We voted to fully leave the EU not stay in some areas and a withdrawal that doesn't allow us to agree our own trade deals is a big red line to cross and will create major problems.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

. . if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude

I'd be happy with that happening

I think any sane person trying to negotiate a deal with a brick wall would walk away

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I wasn't aware you've been present in the cabinet meetings all this time and these negotiations have been made harder then they needed to be because of the attitude the EU had going into this. I know you prefer to attribute all blame on the UK government and let the EU off scott free but despite your opinion there is growing opinion that the problem is the EU and it's desire to punish the UK. They are not doing it out of any real dislike for the UK they are doing it to try and prevent other members taking our route in the future. When it suits the EU it's happy to forget it's rules to achieve a desired outcome and the irish border issue is solvable and could be made to work but it takes two willing to agree on the solution.

As i said if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude but theresa may having weakened her position and being a remainer at heart doesn't have the stomach to do it. We voted to fully leave the EU not stay in some areas and a withdrawal that doesn't allow us to agree our own trade deals is a big red line to cross and will create major problems.

No amount of words from me or you will resolve the Ireland situation. That's why the Government has made the decision it has. Stand by for it to stay in the single market as well.

[arcimedes]

Originally Posted by Carth

I think any sane person trying to negotiate a deal with a brick wall would walk away

That really sums up the attitude on both sides.

Any sane person would never have got in this position to start with.

I have just asked my wall for its opinion and it wouldn't even condescend to acknowledge I was there.

So 1.9 million people overturn the vote of 17 million and your happy about that well of course you are your so desperate to be apart of the EU you'll accept anything no matter how damaging to the UK brilliant. As much as I'd prefer that northern ireland remain in the union if it's a choice between that and us fully exiting the EU then united ireland it is. If people cannot trust the democratic process in the UK and feel their vote is worthless that's going to create far greater problems in this country then losing a part of the union that i doubt would vote to leave the union given the chance. This attitude among remain supporters of EU no matter what baffles me and what has the EU done to deserve this blind loyalty so many show it not once calling it into question on any of it's actions.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

As much as I'd prefer that northern ireland remain in the union if it's a choice between that and us fully exiting the EU then united ireland it is.

Ok but it's easy for you to say. There are a number of people there who want to remain part of the United Kingdom, there is a long history there and it's not easy.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by arcimedes

I have just asked my wall for its opinion and it wouldn't even condescend to acknowledge I was there.

hmm strange

check what it's made of, who made it, and when . . . report back

[tweetiepooh]

Originally Posted by Damien

The issue isn't goods moving back and forth but keeping track of what's gone back and forth. The EU doesn't want a bunch of cheap imported meat going into Ireland and then entering the wider EU unnoticed, passed off as Irish Beef maybe. This is why there are customs checks.

But if we agree with Eire about what comes in/out of our "other" borders then it becomes moot what moves across the UK/Eire border. Eire then becomes the point at which we negotiate.

RoI wants us in the customs union and the single market because once we’re outside, it is a lot easier for us to import produce from other places that are cheaper than Ireland. Beef would be a prime example. They are trying to make life as hard for us as possible with that aim in mind. Unfortunately their politicians are thoroughly inept and haven’t understood the public mood in the UK or that of the key brexiteers in Parliament. CU/SM, or any ‘lite’ version of it, simply isn’t going to happen. All they are going to achieve is a great pile of ill will from their closest geographic neighbour and a key trading partner.

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

But if we agree with Eire about what comes in/out of our "other" borders then it becomes moot what moves across the UK/Eire border. Eire then becomes the point at which we negotiate.

Sorry I don't understand what you mean? All out other borders already have customs checks?

Damien despite what some people are constantly saying people did know what they were voting for total and complete withdrawal from the EU and everything that entails and quite a lot voted that way knowing we'd have a period of uncertainty and economic decline. We've been told numerous times that we're leaving the customs union and single market which is what we voted for and anything less then that is ignoring a rather large percentage of the UK public. As i said the damage that will be done if we don't leave fully and completely could be very bad for this country.

[Bircho]

Originally Posted by Damien

The issue isn't goods moving back and forth but keeping track of what's gone back and forth. The EU doesn't want a bunch of cheap imported meat going into Ireland and then entering the wider EU unnoticed, passed off as Irish Beef maybe. This is why there are customs checks.

And you also have the issue of people movement. You would need to put in place border controls in places like Stranraer otherwise you might have a few of those pesky Romanians (other EU countries also available) travelling into Dublin then going freely up north and across the Irish Sea before claiming our council houses.

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:17 ----------

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

I wasn't aware you've been present in the cabinet meetings all this time and these negotiations have been made harder then they needed to be because of the attitude the EU had going into this. I know you prefer to attribute all blame on the UK government and let the EU off scott free but despite your opinion there is growing opinion that the problem is the EU and it's desire to punish the UK. They are not doing it out of any real dislike for the UK they are doing it to try and prevent other members taking our route in the future. When it suits the EU it's happy to forget it's rules to achieve a desired outcome and the irish border issue is solvable and could be made to work but it takes two willing to agree on the solution.

As i said if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude but theresa may having weakened her position and being a remainer at heart doesn't have the stomach to do it. We voted to fully leave the EU not stay in some areas and a withdrawal that doesn't allow us to agree our own trade deals is a big red line to cross and will create major problems.

I love this "us and them" syndrome - it has been half the problem. But if we are going down that line, I really can't understand why the big bad EU didn't just roll over and let the British tickle their tummy. It's even more worrying because Boris said that is what they would do. I mean, what on earth will happen to the wife's Prosecco?

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:20 ----------

Originally Posted by arcimedes

That really sums up the attitude on both sides.

Any sane person would never have got in this position to start with.

I have just asked my wall for its opinion and it wouldn't even condescend to acknowledge I was there.

The Government has just put a mirror on theirs and it still doesn't talk sense.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing

Damien despite what some people are constantly saying people did know what they were voting for total and complete withdrawal from the EU and everything that entails and quite a lot voted that way knowing we'd have a period of uncertainty and economic decline. We've been told numerous times that we're leaving the customs union and single market which is what we voted for and anything less then that is ignoring a rather large percentage of the UK public. As i said the damage that will be done if we don't leave fully and completely could be very bad for this country.

Right but none of that answers what we do about Northern Ireland. I don't think people voted for a United Ireland.

No they didn't but despite numerous proposals being put before the EU they just keep shutting everything down until they are prepared to negotiate there will be no answer perhaps we should give cameron a call find out what his plan was.