Brexit discussion

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

If migration is controlled when we come out of the EU, there will be much less pressure on homes, services, schools, hospitals, surgeries, etc, of course - how could anyone doubt this? Can you not see that the more people coming in, the more pressure all round? Why does anyone not get this?

If you keep adding water to a bath, it will overflow. Same principle, really.

Unless the migrants we've put off from coming were going to work in services, schools, hospitals, surgeries, etc....

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

H'mm - we went a bit off topic there, Chloé, but what I think you were trying to say in answer to ianch's post was that you love Jacob Rees Mogg very much but he's entitled to his opinions!

Sorry, yeah that did go a little OT. (I did try not to go on too much about the works VS faith argument). Yeah, I do have a lot of personal respect and love for JRM as a person. I never used to be as far right as I am on various issues but conservatives / Republicans were the ones who always remained opposed to abortion / God in the public square etc so I could easily reconcile some of my other positions pretty easily. Obviously I would never compromise my faith so I steered closer to those who shared it - the likes of JRM do so I stood by his membership of the house. Yes, I may not agree with Dr Fox on much but as a pro life Catholic who is opposed to gay marriage I would definitely support either him or Phillip Hammond to become the next PM if it had to be one of the current cabinet ministers. (Hammond was opposed to the gay marriage bill, too). Even though Hammond was a remain campaigner and Fox was adamant on leaving the EU they commonality on faith makes their social stances rise above whatever differences they have over Europe.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Yeah, I do have a lot of personal respect and love for JRM as a person.

get some help, it's not too late

Originally Posted by Mr K

get some help, it's not too late

Says Mr K, who considers Jeremy Corbyn as a great PM...

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Unless the migrants we've put off from coming were going to work in services, schools, hospitals, surgeries, etc....

Highly unlikely Mr K . . . they're all working in factories for minimum wage

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

Says Mr K, who considers Jeremy Corbyn as a great PM...

When did I ever say that Mick? 'Fake news' from you there

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Pretty much spot on, but it goes a bit farther than that. So yes, you got it, but there is a deeper reason. So for example across Christianity there is a conundrum that always has one answer: the question is that of works VS faith.

So the basic question is this, do you have faith alone which will get you into heaven or must you earn your way into it, through deeds?

In Galations 2: 16 Paul says this:



Then, James says this: (James 2: 14 through 17)



Now, this argument is both futile and unanswerable in the first place - Paul gets close to answering it, himself in Romans 7 15 through 24:



See the answer is one and the same, every single time. You are covered by God's grace through belief and if that belief is sincere and you have Christ in your heart, the acts will follow naturally because of your faith - the deeds will come naturally because you truly are a Christian.

Now for what I personally care about as a Christian I would expect to come naturally to my every day life. It doesn't always, but as I have Christ in my heart my desire is to do His work. Because the faith is there, the rest comes as second nature.

Now in regards to JRM, the shared faith leads me to believe that his deeds will follow suit - he has Christ in his heart (which I truly believe that he does) and I believe that his acts will follow accordingly. Given every chance he got, he refused to abandon his Catholic principles and stood firm in his opposition to gay marriage and abortion. He had every single chance to say something like "it is a settled matter" etc etc, but he did not. This is what I was saying to Mick...public opinion is one thing but so long as your own principles do not get compromised along the way, you are good.

You mentioned the future of our children in your post so firstly yes, I am a mother, and I have a 10 year old thank you for asking. I believe that he (specifically) is the member with the most value for the sanctity of life. For me, that is the single biggest issue and most important (along with faith in general) and yes, that over-rides the other issue(s) that you have mentioned. If we leave the EU...oh well. So long as he defines that a child must never be killed in the womb, I will support him.

This is also something I can share with politicians of other denominations, within the same faith - like Frank Fields who is a politician from the other side of the aisle. He is an outstanding advocate for the poor and needy (again as Christ taught us) and he has campaigned tirelessly for the more vulnerable in our society (the disabled, elderly, poor etc). He also was a phenomenal supporter of the troops, taking care of those who were injured in combat through the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and has been supportive of the mission there all along.

It can even go beyond the denomination - my former MP was Matthew Offord (until I moved). He was opposed to the gay marriage bill, he supports Israel beyond question, and ironically enough, opposed to the EU like the two others above, too. I am in favor of EU membership for Britain but ultimately it is not important for me as an issue (insofar as priorities go).

You are right, I do not agree with JRM on the EU and some other stuff. But I do agree with him (and the two above) on God the father (though Offord being Jewish only sees the son as a prophet) and the protection of every unborn child, first and foremost. JRM is my denomination and I would love a Roman Catholic PM but beyond the faith, all 3 have supported restricting abortion or banning it altogether, they all supported the Iraq war and have been phenomenal supporters of Israel, too. Field does a great deal for the poor and the needy (as Christ taught us), Offord does a great job defending the constituency with the largest Jewish population in the country and even though I may not agree with all 3 on Europe I don't particularly care - God before country any day. Because if you have the faith, the acts that the Father told us to carry out, will follow naturally.

Risking the wrath of the off-topic police but here goes

Trying to govern a country of mainly non-theist individuals and a disparate set of widely differing faiths based on the tenets of one specific faith is misguided at best, disturbing at worst. So any politician who try to bring their personal beliefs to the (political) table is on a hiding to nothing.

Quoting scripture to backup an argument is as useful as a chocolate teapot. You can put together justification for most things from the Old and New Testament so it means nothing when reinforcing an objective point.

If JRM ever puts God before Country, he's political toast ...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Unless the migrants we've put off from coming were going to work in services, schools, hospitals, surgeries, etc....

The whole point is about controlling migration, not stopping it altogether.

Your post shows the nature of the Brexit kickbackers - deliberately confuse the problem with the intention of getting a peverse result!

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The whole point is about controlling migration, not stopping it altogether.

Your post shows the nature of the Brexit kickbackers - deliberately confuse the problem with the intention of getting a peverse result!

We already have a problem recruiting overseas workers in critical areas like health and farming, and this is before Brexit has even happened. We're coming across as a very unwelcoming country, there are plenty of others that will welcome these workers.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8194701.html
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...es-say-doctors

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas

Sorry, yeah that did go a little OT. (I did try not to go on too much about the works VS faith argument). Yeah, I do have a lot of personal respect and love for JRM as a person. I never used to be as far right as I am on various issues but conservatives / Republicans were the ones who always remained opposed to abortion / God in the public square etc so I could easily reconcile some of my other positions pretty easily. Obviously I would never compromise my faith so I steered closer to those who shared it - the likes of JRM do so I stood by his membership of the house. Yes, I may not agree with Dr Fox on much but as a pro life Catholic who is opposed to gay marriage I would definitely support either him or Phillip Hammond to become the next PM if it had to be one of the current cabinet ministers. (Hammond was opposed to the gay marriage bill, too). Even though Hammond was a remain campaigner and Fox was adamant on leaving the EU they commonality on faith makes their social stances rise above whatever differences they have over Europe.

I know your belief is sincere, Chloé, but I think we should make up our own minds and think for ourselves on these matters, rather than rely on ancient texts written by people who lacked the depth of understanding we now have. The danger of unconditional belief are amply demonstrated in the rise of ISIL.

Look at abortion from a different perspective. Rather than just quote from a firm 'belief', argue the point that abortion involves the murder of a human being who has consciousness and feeling. The issue should not be whether the baby is capable of living after abortion, but whether it can be conscious of its situation and feel pain. If it can do so, then abortion in those circumstances is murder, pure and simple. Abortion at up to 12 weeks, to my mind, is acceptable, based on what I know.

As far as the subject of this thread is concerned, I don't think religion is relevant at all. Either Brexit will work or it won't. Personally, I think there are enormous potential benefits from getting out, and the real danger is staying in. This monolithic monstrosity will implode sooner or later, and we don't want to be in it when that happens.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The whole point is about controlling migration, not stopping it altogether.

Your post shows the nature of the Brexit kickbackers - deliberately confuse the problem with the intention of getting a peverse result!

Whereas you falsely assume that every migrant comes here to sign on.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Whereas you falsely assume that every migrant comes here to sign on.

And the Elephant in the room that is never discussed is that net migration into the UK is far larger for non-EU countries:

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/sta...ion-statistics

EU net migration is currently 90,000 compared to 205,000 from outside the EU.

chart (1).png

An inconvenient truth ...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Mick

Says Mr K, who considers Jeremy Corbyn as a great PM...

Lol, I'm sure Corbyn wishes this was true!
I honestly don't think anyone on this forum would credit JC as ever being a potential great PM! Not that the current incumbent is exactly brilliant, mind.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Whereas you falsely assume that every migrant comes here to sign on.

No, I am saying that if anyone wants to settle in the UK, they need to demonstrate that we need their skills. What's wrong with that? Please tell!

A lot of nonsense has been spoken about the demands for staff in the NHS, but this is based on a false assumption. We are looking not at a ban on immigration but controlled immigration, so we only take on the people we need.

Most of us are not anti-immigration, we are just concerned about uncontrolled immigration, because we are only a small island.

[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by Mr K

get some help, it's not too late

You can't show warmth for him as a person? See, this is the thing with me - usually if someone is not nasty / crude / vile etc, I can have a good relationship with them, no matter how much I disagree with them.

I have political differences with a lot of my friends (almost all are more conservative than me).

I don't expect everyone to agree with me on everything - what kind of life would that be?

To be fair to her btw, May is taking that approach of exit options from the EU within her own cabinet. Nobody agrees on anything do they? Collective responsibility is one thing but Boris and Jo Johnson are brothers, look at how they disagree on the issue.

Disagreement but respect is a fundamental sign of decency.

I disagree with a lot of the leave voters (on the issue of the EU) in this thread - just because I can like them or get along with them as people does not mean that I need help.