Britain outside the EU

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Pure deflection. I am pointing out one of the pure unadulterated lies made during the campaign. Let's focus on what was promised and what is reality.

You aim to conjure up a childish name calling game when, in all seriousness, this is the fate of the country we are talking about. You can call names in the playground or debate how we mitigate the devastating effects of this catastrophic decision.

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Again pure deflection. We have reality and we have OB's version ...

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Said like a true follower. You know those who frequently "say it was all sovereignty and I'd pay any price" are those who can well afford to do so.

I was right with the "sour grapes" message.

The "fate of the country", as you put it, was taken by Brexit out of Brussels' hands, which were manipulated by France and Germany.

It's not my fault that we have an incompetent government that is pissing it all away with bad policies. But leaving the EU was right and I am confident that British business will put it right in the medium term.

I wish you lot would debate rather than indulge in petty squabbling

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I was right with the "sour grapes" message.

The "fate of the country", as you put it, was taken by Brexit out of Brussels' hands, which were manipulated by France and Germany.

It's not my fault that we have an incompetent government that is pissing it all away with bad policies. But leaving the EU was right and I am confident that British business will put it right in the medium term.

In the medium term, British business will sort it out by getting us back into the Single Market. In the longer term, they'll sort it out by getting us back in the EU where we can once be leading Europe and putting Germany and France back in their place. Just imagine the positive influence we could have had on the EU countries in supporting Ukraine if we'd still been a member! No wonder Russia is not keen on the EU.

Anyone who voted for Johnson should have known what to expect, but I appreciate the choice on the Labour side was not great at the time.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

In the medium term, British business will sort it out by getting us back into the Single Market. In the longer term, they'll sort it out by getting us back in the EU where we can once be leading Europe it and putting Germany and France back in their place.

Anyone who voted for Johnson should have known what to expect, but I appreciate the choice on the Labour side was not great at the time.

Dream on.

If we were to rejoin the EU (and that’s a mighty big if) we wouldn’t be leading anything. A country that looks like it doesn’t know what it wants is not well placed to tell others what to do.

The leadership role you seek for the UK can now only be found in a determined effort to show the world that we know what we’re doing right now and are willing and able to make a success of it. Ongoing remainer messianic fantasies about the UK saving the EU only make that task harder.

[1andrew1]

Everyone probably has different definitions for medium and long term so it's probably helpful if I share mine:

Medium term: 15 years

Long term: 35 years

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Dream on.

If we were to rejoin the EU (and that’s a mighty big if) we wouldn’t be leading anything. A country that looks like it doesn’t know what it wants is not well placed to tell others what to do.

The leadership role you seek for the UK can now only be found in a determined effort to show the world that we know what we’re doing right now and are willing and able to make a success of it. Ongoing remainer messianic fantasies about the UK saving the EU only make that task harder.

The EU know that the UK is trouble, it would be an act of insanity to welcome us back into the club

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I was right with the "sour grapes" message.

The "fate of the country", as you put it, was taken by Brexit out of Brussels' hands, which were manipulated by France and Germany.

It's not my fault that we have an incompetent government that is pissing it all away with bad policies. But leaving the EU was right and I am confident that British business will put it right in the medium term.

You should take Maggy's advice and drop the playground insults. You should also drop the "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"* excuse for Brexit. The law of [Trade] Gravity meant, and still means, that there will never be an economic upside in the next decade+.


a homage to my misspent TV watching youth

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Originally Posted by papa smurf

The EU know that the UK is trouble, it would be an act of insanity to welcome us back into the club

Spot on. They wouldn't touch the UK with a bargepole for a number of reasons not least while we have an electoral system that can vote in a Government that can drive through such lunatic policies.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

The EU know that the UK is trouble, it would be an act of insanity to welcome us back into the club

Not today or tomorrow. But in 35 years' time they just might.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Chris

Dream on.

If we were to rejoin the EU (and that’s a mighty big if) we wouldn’t be leading anything. A country that looks like it doesn’t know what it wants is not well placed to tell others what to do.

The leadership role you seek for the UK can now only be found in a determined effort to show the world that we know what we’re doing right now and are willing and able to make a success of it. Ongoing remainer messianic fantasies about the UK saving the EU only make that task harder.

You cannot make a success of such abject failure unless you are in the cult of the true believers. Mitigation & damage limitation are the only realistic hopes. Just "believing" ain't going to cut it.

You can forget the UK re-joining the EU or Single Market in the next decade+. Too many bridges have been burned and our international credibility is shot at the moment.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by ianch99

You should take Maggy's advice and drop the playground insults. You should also drop the "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!"* excuse for Brexit. The law of [Trade] Gravity meant, and still means, that there will never be an economic upside in the next decade+.


a homage to my misspent TV watching youth

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Spot on. They wouldn't touch the UK with a bargepole for a number of reasons not least while we have an electoral system that can vote in a Government that can drive through such lunatic policies.

Agreed the EU hate democracy

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Y The law of [Trade] Gravity meant, and still means, that there will never be an economic upside in the next decade+

Barring any huge technological leaps, the trade law of gravity will always exist. It's managed to exist even with the advent of the Internet and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

The very fact that trade-weighted sterling fell sharply after the EU referendum in 2016 and, despite recovering from its trough later that year, remains 8% below the levels before the vote in June 2016 speaks to the trade law of gravity.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Agreed the EU hate democracy

Except for the fact that Farage successfully become an MEP and not an MP as our electoral system favours a duopoly - once upon a time, Liberals and Conservatives, now Labour and Conservatives.

Originally Posted by ianch99

You cannot make a success of such abject failure unless you are in the cult of the true believers. Mitigation & damage limitation are the only realistic hopes. Just "believing" ain't going to cut it.

You can forget the UK re-joining the EU or Single Market in the next decade+. Too many bridges have been burned and our international credibility is shot at the moment.

Our international credibility is patchy - weaker in terms of our relationship with our near neighbours and largest trading bloc but stronger with regard to our efforts in Ukraine and parts of the Commonwealth.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Barring any huge technological leaps, the trade law of gravity will always exist. It's managed to exist even with the advent of the Internet and the fall of the Iron Curtain.

The very fact that trade-weighted sterling fell sharply after the EU referendum in 2016 and, despite recovering from its trough later that year, remains 8% below the levels before the vote in June 2016 speaks to the trade law of gravity.


Except for the fact that Farage successfully become an MEP and not an MP as our electoral system favours a duopoly - once upon a time, Liberals and Conservatives, now Labour and Conservatives.


Our international credibility is patchy - weaker in terms of our relationship with our near neighbours and largest trading bloc but stronger with regard to our efforts in Ukraine and parts of the Commonwealth.

And the EU hated him for that.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

And the EU hated him for that.

The point remains that the so-called undemocratic EU allowed him to be elected whilst the UK's system didn't.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As I've consistently said, freedom from rules made in Brussels, usually to suit the French, with wheezes like the WTD being perpetrated to combat the UK veto - that's what's important. The GDP dip will be recovered - that's what business does.

So it's not about "which rules we should stop following". It's about sovereignty and the freedom to choose the rules to which we will be bound.

genuine question.

isn't or wasn't that the point of the veto? we also for example didn't join the Euro. (i dont think that was veto though)

I guess what im asking is, did we have the power to be able to not implement rules set by Brussels and choose blindly to follow them by inept governments of the time?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

genuine question.

isn't or wasn't that the point of the veto? we also for example didn't join the Euro. (i dont think that was veto though)

I guess what im asking is, did we have the power to be able to not implement rules set by Brussels and choose blindly to follow them by inept governments of the time?

You ask a very fair question. We had the power not to be able to implement rules set by Brussels whenever we were able to negotiate a derogation/opt-out. In the case of the WTD, which switched from a vetoable decision to a Health & Safety measure (qualified majority) we were able to negotiate opt-outs. I remind that the WTD was one of France's pet project to bring everyone down to their ridiculous working practices.

But, and this is the big BUT, the path toward federalisation is/was the big worry for me - the EU Parliament would trump ours. The Tories would always have vetoed this, but the creeping powers being sought by the Commission would have ultimately led to a trade-off with the UK government. For example, the UK might have agreed to a particular competence to be given to the Commission in exchange for meaningful changes to the CAP (Blair got such a commitment which France then frustrated); or in exchange for a bigger rebate (ha ha).