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U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion
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Old 03-05-2022, 08:34   #1
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U.S Supreme Court overturns (Roe v Wade) legalised abortion

U.S news but pretty major: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/0...inion-00029473

Quote:
The Supreme Court has voted to strike down the landmark Roe v. Wade decision, according to an initial draft majority opinion written by Justice Samuel Alito circulated inside the court and obtained by POLITICO.

Deliberations on controversial cases have in the past been fluid. Justices can and sometimes do change their votes as draft opinions circulate and major decisions can be subject to multiple drafts and vote-trading, sometimes until just days before a decision is unveiled. The courtís holding will not be final until it is published, likely in the next two months.

The immediate impact of the ruling as drafted in February would be to end a half-century guarantee of federal constitutional protection of abortion rights and allow each state to decide whether to restrict or ban abortion. Itís unclear if there have been subsequent changes to the draft.

No draft decision in the modern history of the court has been disclosed publicly while a case was still pending. The unprecedented revelation is bound to intensify the debate over what was already the most controversial case on the docket this term.
Overturning Row vs Wade is huge alone. This would be the world's richest, most powerful, country removing abortion rights in a Western world which typically moves towards liberalising them. Although it wouldn't ban abortion but remove the constitutional block to individual states banning it themselves. Many have laws ready to be enforced the moment the bill is overturned.

But it's also a huge story because it was leaked and this is going to tear the country apart even more than it usually does. This is a country that hates each other over silly things like masks, what a comedian says on Netflix or on a podcast.
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Old 03-05-2022, 08:41   #2
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

The issue is whether it should be a federal matter or a state-level(ie democratic) matter.
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Old 03-05-2022, 09:32   #3
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

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Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The issue is whether it should be a federal matter or a state-level(ie democratic) matter.
'State level' doesn't guarantee that actions are automatically more democratic.
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Old 03-05-2022, 09:47   #4
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

It should definitely be federal and I would go one step further and I would argue should be international and enshrined in law based on an established consensus by the scientific community.
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Old 03-05-2022, 09:58   #5
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The issue is whether it should be a federal matter or a state-level(ie democratic) matter.
It would be more accurate to say the issue is whether itís a constitutional matter. Most federal matters are settled by democratically elected representatives making legislation, or by exercise of executive power by an elected president. Federal government is just as democratic as state government.

In this case the Supreme Court rules on whether government can ban abortion, or whether that would infringe on the constitutional right not to have oneís liberty excessively infringed upon by government. Even so, it is possible, although very difficult, to alter the constitution to make it explicit on this point rather than subject to shifting legal opinion.
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Old 03-05-2022, 10:04   #6
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

It's a difficult one, and always will be. I'm a man so will never be in the position of a woman with an unwanted pregnancy.

Still, I find an abortion of convenience uncomfortable. That's just my opinion.

What I can't square, is the fight for the right to take a life that hasn't been given a chance to live, yet deny a person who has lived a life and facing a debilitating and degrading death the chance to end their life on their terms.
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Old 03-05-2022, 10:21   #7
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre View Post
What I can't square, is the fight for the right to take a life that hasn't been given a chance to live, yet deny a person who has lived a life and facing a debilitating and degrading death the chance to end their life on their terms.
There is also the way a lot of the evangelical right look at this. They don't want women to have access to safe and legal abortion, but as soon as the resulting child is born they don't seem to want any support for them and the family at either the state or federal level.

I also don't understand why a lot of the same people that are supportive for the 'right to life' when it comes to abortion are also big supporters of the death penalty.
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:16   #8
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Individual states are passing laws in relation to abortion. Therefore the legal competence lies with the individual states. It is the Supreme Court that has imposed limits on what they can decide(ie they can't have a blanket ban), not the Federal government. If the Federal government had legal competence on these matters, then they would've already shut down the possibility of the individual states having their own restrictions.

With the Roe vs Wade decision, not even the Federal government could overturn it. How is that democratic?
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:18   #9
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

That's the way their system works.
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:20   #10
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr View Post
There is also the way a lot of the evangelical right look at this. They don't want women to have access to safe and legal abortion, but as soon as the resulting child is born they don't seem to want any support for them and the family at either the state or federal level.

I also don't understand why a lot of the same people that are supportive for the 'right to life' when it comes to abortion are also big supporters of the death penalty.
Then again why do those who oppose the death penalty, can also be in favour of someone being pulled apart and needing an anaesthetic because they can feel pain.
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:23   #11
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
If the Federal government had legal competence on these matters, then they would've already shut down the possibility of the individual states having their own restrictions.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...ral-right-vote
Quote:
House Democrats vote to establish federal right to abortion

Women’s Health and Protection Act is part of strategy to push back against rush of state laws but unlikely to advance in Senate
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:30   #12
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
Individual states are passing laws in relation to abortion. Therefore the legal competence lies with the individual states. It is the Supreme Court that has imposed limits on what they can decide(ie they can't have a blanket ban), not the Federal government. If the Federal government had legal competence on these matters, then they would've already shut down the possibility of the individual states having their own restrictions.

With the Roe vs Wade decision, not even the Federal government could overturn it. How is that democratic?
The US Constitution states, in terms, that government may not unreasonably impinge on the liberty of the individual. The Supreme Courtís opinion is that this means neither federal nor state government may pass laws banning abortion, as this would represent an unreasonable infringement of a womanís liberty.

Your argument is illogical. Youíre claiming that states are trying to do something, therefore they have the competence to do it, whereas federal government hasnít tried to stop them, therefore does not have the competence to stop them. However there are a range of other possible explanations for the actions of the states and the federal government. In particular there would be no value in the federal government legislating on abortion when it is a controversial issue, and the Supreme Court has already ruled on it.

The constitution is held a couple of steps back from being able to be changed by simple legislation because it is supposed to be the defining document of a nation state, not a reflection of temporary political preferences. Nevertheless there are democratic procedures available to change it, and those who interpret it are appointed by others who have been democratically elected. In fact it is the shifting political climate in the USA that has now brought it to the point where the Supreme Court position on abortion might now change.
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:34   #13
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
The Supreme Court’s opinion is that this means neither federal nor state government may pass laws banning abortion, as this would represent an unreasonable infringement of a woman’s liberty.
That's not what the ruling says though (if true)
Quote:
“We hold that Roe and Casey must be overruled,” he writes in the document, labeled as the “Opinion of the Court.” “It is time to heed the Constitution and return the issue of abortion to the people’s elected representatives.”
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Old 03-05-2022, 11:51   #14
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
The US Constitution states, in terms, that government may not unreasonably impinge on the liberty of the individual. The Supreme Courtís opinion is that this means neither federal nor state government may pass laws banning abortion, as this would represent an unreasonable infringement of a womanís liberty.

Your argument is illogical. Youíre claiming that states are trying to do something, therefore they have the competence to do it, whereas federal government hasnít tried to stop them, therefore does not have the competence to stop them. However there are a range of other possible explanations for the actions of the states and the federal government. In particular there would be no value in the federal government legislating on abortion when it is a controversial issue, and the Supreme Court has already ruled on it.

The constitution is held a couple of steps back from being able to be changed by simple legislation because it is supposed to be the defining document of a nation state, not a reflection of temporary political preferences. Nevertheless there are democratic procedures available to change it, and those who interpret it are appointed by others who have been democratically elected. In fact it is the shifting political climate in the USA that has now brought it to the point where the Supreme Court position on abortion might now change.
The individual states ARE imposing their own restrictions because they have the legal competence to do so.
As your quote stated :- "part of strategy to push back against rush of state laws". Of course, if the makeup of Congress etc changes, then they could return full control to the individual states.
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Old 03-05-2022, 12:01   #15
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Re: Draft Supreme Court opinion overturning (Roe v Wade) abortion leaked

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking View Post
The individual states ARE imposing their own restrictions because they have the legal competence to do so.
As your quote stated :- "part of strategy to push back against rush of state laws". Of course, if the makeup of Congress etc changes, then they could return full control to the individual states.
As much as I can tell without the full knowledge of how the US law works, if Roe vs Wade is struck down (along with the linked Casey one) then the States laws are the ones that will apply without the ability to dispute them at the federal level - unless or until a federal law is passed.

If a federal abortion law is passed you can bet this ends up back at the Supreme Court where the states who have the opposite one would dispute it. That's true in both circumstances i.e. restrictive state laws and a federal access law or vice versa.
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