Government & Post Election Discussion

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Mr K

What? Only I would connect what Nigel Lawson says, to what Nigel Lawson does ! Surely not

He is a hypocrite pure and simple as there are plenty who can talk the talk but when it comes down to it l like people who say what they mean rather then those who come out with false insincerity.

[1andrew1]

Whatever we might say about Theresa May's Government, The Conservatives are still ahead in the opinion polls - 40% v 35% Labour.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...bour-35-26-27-

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 ----------

Originally Posted by Hugh

But, but, but...

How can we blame the EU for non-EU migration steadily rising?

A competitive, thriving country made possible by EU membership attracts global talent.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Whatever we might say about Theresa May's Government, The Conservatives are still ahead in the opinion polls - 40% v 35% Labour.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...bour-35-26-27-

l think that tells you about the current state of the Labour party who quite clearly has the wrong leader in charge but that does not mean the Conservatives are any cop either because they ain't as they are too far right wing currently and there are many moderate conservatives who are not enamoured with the way their party is going currently..

[Angua]

Originally Posted by denphone

l think that tells you about the current state of the Labour party who quite clearly has the wrong leader in charge but that does not mean the Conservatives are any cop either because they ain't as they are too far right wing currently and there are many moderate conservatives who are not enamoured with the way their party is going currently..

The Tories are better at papering over the cracks. There is a fundamental schism visible between the moderates & RW Tories but they will pull together somehow.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

l think that tells you about the current state of the Labour party who quite clearly has the wrong leader in charge but that does not mean the Conservatives are any cop either because they ain't as they are too far right wing currently and there are many moderate conservatives who are not enamoured with the way their party is going currently..

In what way do you think they are too 'right-wing', Den?

Margaret Thatcher was right-wing but Theresa May is a teddy bear compared with her.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

In what way do you think they are too 'right-wing', Den?

Margaret Thatcher was right-wing but Theresa May is a teddy bear compared with her.

Too many policies l disagree with like the NHS , education , transport policy , too much privatisation and outsourcing of government contracts awarded to private companies where profits come before the customers interests on every occasion as its gone too far that way for my liking but that does not excuse Labour and its PFI fiasco either, a tax system that favours the big multinationals companies too much while smaller businesses have to cope with a archaic unfair business rate system , A lack of any sustainable affordable housing which helps people get on the properly ladder , etc, etc , etc.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by denphone

Too many policies l disagree with like the NHS , education , transport policy , too much privatisation and outsourcing of government contracts awarded to private companies where profits come before the customers interests on every occasion as its gone too far that way for my liking but that does not excuse Labour and its PFI fiasco either, a tax system that favours the big multinationals companies too much while smaller businesses have to cope with a archaic unfair business rate system , A lack of any sustainable affordable housing which helps people get on the properly ladder , etc, etc , etc.

What we have really had in government since 1979 is Tory or Tory lite.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

Too many policies l disagree with like the NHS , education , transport policy , too much privatisation and outsourcing of government contracts awarded to private companies where profits come before the customers interests on every occasion as its gone too far that way for my liking but that does not excuse Labour and its PFI fiasco either, a tax system that favours the big multinationals companies too much while smaller businesses have to cope with a archaic unfair business rate system , A lack of any sustainable affordable housing which helps people get on the properly ladder , etc, etc , etc.

Wow! We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one!

I'm surprised that you should be unhappy with the government's policy on the NHS. It was certainly not in safe hands when patients resorted to drinking out of vases to keep hydrated in Labour's day. The Conservatives put more money into the NHS than Labour would have done, they are now working to improve mental health services which have long been the Cinderella service of the NHS, they have stopped the appalling waste of money on poor value for money contracts and they've just announced another £20 bn for the NHS.

Which of those policies do you disagree with? You know very well that Labour would not do better, I am sure.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I'm surprised that you should be unhappy with the government's policy on the NHS. It was certainly not in safe hands when patients resorted to drinking out of vases to keep hydrated in Labour's day. The Conservatives put more money into the NHS than Labour would have done, .

Having been a frequent user of the NHS these last 20 years l would say l am more qualified then some on the state of the NHS and it has deteriorated a fair bit in these last 6 plus years in terms of the many facets of the NHS.


There are many reasons of course and this is a reasonable explanation on where we are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572110

https://fullfact.org/health/is-nhs-in-crisis/

---------- Post added at 05:05 ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

, they are now working to improve mental health services which have long been the Cinderella service of the NHS,
.

Mental health services have been severely underfunded for far too long IMO as a persons mental health is just as important as their physical health as politician's talk the talk about mental health services and improving it but thus so far that is all it is talk and talk is cheap.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-mental-health

https://www.itv.com/news/utv/2018-12...mental-health/

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y-productivity

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by denphone

Having been a frequent user of the NHS these last 20 years l would say l am more qualified then some on the state of the NHS and it has deteriorated a fair bit in these last 6 plus years in terms of the many facets of the NHS.


There are many reasons of course and this is a reasonable explanation on where we are.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-42572110

https://fullfact.org/health/is-nhs-in-crisis/

Interesting to read about the lower increases in NHS spending under recent non-Labour governments, Den. Thanks for sharing.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Which of those policies do you disagree with? You know very well that Labour would not do better, I am sure.

There are many policies l disagree with as the Conservatives are in government currently and its up to them to come out with coherent well thought out policies but thus so far they have been too deeply obsessed with Brexit and not much else and that is not good enough for many voters.

We are not talking about Labour as that seems to be your usual default position when a forum member questions the government of the day as the Conservatives are in government , They are in charge of government policies so the buck stops with them end of...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by denphone

We are not talking about Labour as that seems to be your usual default position when a forum member questions the government of the day as the Conservatives are in government , They are in charge of government policies so the buck stops with them end of...

That form of non-debate has an official name "Whataboutism". It was popularised by the Trump campaign who suggested the use of "What about her emails?" when faced with difficult questions. (Her being Hillary Clinton.)

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by denphone

There are many policies l disagree with as the Conservatives are in government currently and its up to them to come out with coherent well thought out policies but thus so far they have been too deeply obsessed with Brexit and not much else and that is not good enough for many voters.

We are not talking about Labour as that seems to be your usual default position when a forum member questions the government of the day as the Conservatives are in government , They are in charge of government policies so the buck stops with them end of...

Yes, but when it comes to the vote, you have to make a decision about the performance of parties in government, don't you?

It's no good voting for Labour because you think the Conservatives could have done more for the NHS when it is obvious that Labour would do less, based on their record.

That is why I make the comparison.

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 ----------

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

That form of non-debate has an official name "Whataboutism". It was popularised by the Trump campaign who suggested the use of "What about her emails?" when faced with difficult questions. (Her being Hillary Clinton.)

It's not, Andrew. You can complain as much as you like about the current government, but when you compare them with the last Labour government and the state of the Corbyn Labour Party now, it puts matters in context.

Of course, the diehards don't like such comparisons because it shows their party in a bad light. That's why they don't want to engage in such arguments.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

It's not, Andrew. You can complain as much as you like about the current government, but when you compare them with the last Labour government and the state of the Corbyn Labour Party now, it puts matters in context.

Of course, the diehards don't like such comparisons because it shows their party in a bad light. That's why they don't want to engage in such arguments.

Denphone and I are not diehards who support any one party, as far as I know. There's threads to discuss the Labour Party's issues but I for one don't think any party has a monopoly on policies or talent.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Denphone and I are not diehards who support any one party, as far as I know. There's threads to discuss the Labour Party's issues but I for one don't think any party has a monopoly on policies or talent.

Spot on Andrew but alas any constructive criticism of some of the incumbent governments policies and its the usual predictable flag waving default response from him.

l will criticise a policy whichever party it is if l think there is a problem with that policy but the Conservatives are the incumbent sitting government so the buck stops with them as its their policies that are playing out in the country currently.