Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Mick

About what ?

Apologies, you posted an answer to my question about remaining or leaving EU institutions while I was posting

A Hard Brexit to me mirrors what Rizzyking said - 'no official connection to the EU anymore'. That would include leaving the EU institutions I listed before and it this I struggle to see any benefit to. Your comment about it being reasonable to remain in those institutions is a softer option.

I think Brexit means different things to different people and 'Hard' and 'Soft' Brexit terms are nuanced and often misleading depending on their priorities. For example, I see you want to keep the riff raff out, so ending the freedom of movement seems most important (of course, Directive 2004/38 sections 9 and 22 allowed this already, the UK Government just never exercised their rights under the directive)

Originally Posted by jonbxx

Apologies, you posted an answer to my question about remaining or leaving EU institutions while I was posting

A Hard Brexit to me mirrors what Rizzyking said - 'no official connection to the EU anymore'. That would include leaving the EU institutions I listed before and it this I struggle to see any benefit to. Your comment about it being reasonable to remain in those institutions is a softer option.

I think Brexit means different things to different people and 'Hard' and 'Soft' Brexit terms are nuanced and often misleading depending on their priorities. For example, I see you want to keep the riff raff out, so ending the freedom of movement seems most important (of course, Directive 2004/38 sections 9 and 22 allowed this already, the UK Government just never exercised their rights under the directive)

This is just it. I am totally for people coming here who have something to contribute, i.e. Skills that we can value. But open access to ALL EU migrants has to end IMO. We cannot keep sustaining 100,000's of immigrants every year.

We can't pick and choose what we stay part of even if we wanted to the EU wouldn't allow it but agreements on many aspects will be reached as it's beneficial to both parties unless the EU want to play hardball. If they choose to do that it will validate my decision to vote leave as clearly it is an organisation that doesn't have the best interests of the citizens foremost in it's priorities. Amongst other things that was one of my big reasons for voting leave I don't believe the good and wellbeing of the citizenry is the driving force behind the EU anymore it's an organisation dedicated to a political end whether that works out for us ordinary people or not. The rush to enlarge was another reason and the EU's pushing of russia which along with obama and clinton had she won into a corner was a precarious situation us voting for brexit and the USA electing trump has caused a pause and allowed cooler heads to consider things more.

Will there be beneficial aspects of the EU we will lose yes of course there will be but the advantages we will gain from complete sovereign decision making that is for the best interests of the UK rather then a bloc will pay dividends over the medium to longterm. It isn't going to be an easy or smooth road in the short term but we will come through that period and then be better placed to take advantage of true global trade and diplomacy. For those saying our influence will further deteriorate it may or may not but given that our influence has been declining for decades it isn't an aspect that was high on my personal influences in voting and i believe our government being able to make unilateral decisions will increase our standing depending on those decisions of course.

Staying within the EU or leaving both choices had their risks and negative consequences but in my mind there was a better chance for sustained prosperity for my kids and their kids in leaving.

[Uncle Peter]

Tusk having the audacity to tell reporters that May's immigration offer is "below expectations"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40378913

Tusk won't be there long as he's been summoned back to Warsaw to give evidence relating to his son's involvement in a crooked Ponzi scheme that failed. Another more serious matter where he will face questions over an alleged cover up and collusion between the Polish secret service and the Russians over the plane crash which killed Lech Kaczynski.

Being stitched up will be hugely popular in his home country where he's widely despised.

https://www.ft.com/content/c3bae2a7-...9be9a?mhq5j=e2

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

For example, I see you want to keep the riff raff out, so ending the freedom of movement seems most important (of course, Directive 2004/38 sections 9 and 22 allowed this already, the UK Government just never exercised their rights under the directive)

Can you elaborate on this point? The whole leave campaign was founded on the proposition that we cannot control freedom of movement under any circumstances whilst a member?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Can you elaborate on this point? The whole leave campaign was founded on the proposition that we cannot control freedom of movement under any circumstances whilst a member?

Yes. We do have border controls except with Ireland. The amount of time I've spent in airports shows we do have control of our borders.
If we don't take advantage of legislation to deport those not supporting themselves or have committed criminal acts that's not the EU's fault. But some on this forum don't appreciate this basic point.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by ianch99

A Swiss perspective on where we are now:

(Brexiteers, best look away now)

THE LAUGHING STOCK OF EUROPE

That's one persons opinion

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

You didn't vote for a hard Brexit David, no one did, the term hadn't been made up when we voted.

You are correct. remoaners made the term up in an effort to thwart Brexit.....or 'hard brexit' as they call it......'soft brexit' not actually being brexit or indeed what we voted for

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Yes. We do have border controls except with Ireland.

No we don't.

We may not be part of the Schengen agreement, which is totally borderless, which does mean that we have passport control which means we can stop "known" wanted persons or other "known" undesirables but we cannot stop anyone from other EU states from freely entering the country.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

That's one persons opinion

It's weird how some folks are only too willing to cite such an opinion whilst refusing to listen to the opinions of the 52% of the electorate here who voted to leave the EU.

I reckon they'll listen to any opinion which confirms what they think/want and couldn't give a stuff about the views of the majority. They accept democracy only when it yields the result they want. Pathetic.

[denphone]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

That's one persons opinion

As is yours , mine and everybody else's.

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Uncle Peter

Tusk having the audacity to tell reporters that May's immigration offer is "below expectations"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40378913

Tusk won't be there long as he's been summoned back to Warsaw to give evidence relating to his son's involvement in a crooked Ponzi scheme that failed. Another more serious matter where he will face questions over an alleged cover up and collusion between the Polish secret service and the Russians over the plane crash which killed Lech Kaczynski.

Being stitched up will be hugely popular in his home country where he's widely despised.

https://www.ft.com/content/c3bae2a7-...9be9a?mhq5j=e2

What gets me is that these Eurocrats reckon we're the ones who're arrogant. It's beyond paraody really yet there are people here who lap this sort of nonsense up. My god some people are thick.

It shouldn't be necessary to point this out but sadly it clearly is. The EU is likely to denigrate every offer the UK makes because in so doing they'll be hoping to secure yet more concessions from the UK whilst offering little or nothing in return.

May has made an offer to secure migrants' rights and she gets lambasted by the usual suspects when the likes of Tusk have offered nothing.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

That's one persons opinion

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

You are correct. remoaners made the term up in an effort to thwart Brexit.....or 'hard brexit' as they call it......'soft brexit' not actually being brexit or indeed what we voted for

I heard some liberal lord droning on earlier about it being right for the people to have the final say on the deal which I agree with but where his lordship and I differ is that he seemed to be saying if we didn't like the deal we'd stay in where as I thought if we didn't like the deal offered we'd just leave without one, silly old duffer, clutching at straws

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Can you elaborate on this point? The whole leave campaign was founded on the proposition that we cannot control freedom of movement under any circumstances whilst a member?

Sure, no problems. The directive which discusses the free movement of people states that free movement of labour one of the central tenets of the EU (free movement of goods, services and labour)

However, the directive also states that immigrants must be self supporting and there is a 3 month time limit after which an immigrant, if they have not found a job, can be asked to leave the country. Now, to put a bit of balance here, there is nothing to stop them just circling around and coming back but the clause is there.

In addition, any country can refuse admission based on 'public policy, public security or public health'. It's all a bit fluffy and these could be challenged but the mechanisms are there to prevent admission.

Belgium are pretty vigorous on using these rules. All EU migrants are required to register and the three month limit to find jobs is enforced. Unregistered migrants are deported.

Basically, we had the ability to 'chuck the riff raff out' but never exercised those rights

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

However, the directive also states that immigrants must be self supporting and there is a 3 month time limit after which an immigrant, if they have not found a job, can be asked to leave the country.

Providing you know where all the 600,000 or so are? So we can ask them to leave.

Now, to put a bit of balance here, there is nothing to stop them just circling around and coming back but the clause is there.

Exactly, so you spend milllions tracking them, deporting them and they just waltz back in and you can do nothing about it.

In addition, any country can refuse admission based on 'public policy, public security or public health'. It's all a bit fluffy and these could be challenged but the mechanisms are there to prevent admission.

pretty much unenforceable within the Schengen zone - which we're not it thankfully

Belgium are pretty vigorous on using these rules. All EU migrants are required to register and the three month limit to find jobs is enforced. Unregistered migrants are deported.

As I say pretty much unenforceable within Schengen

Basically, we had the ability to 'chuck the riff raff out' but never exercised those rights

Back to the previous comment, why spend millions registering, tracking and deporting EU nationals when they can just hop on the next train back and there's nothing we can do.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Mick

This is just it. I am totally for people coming here who have something to contribute, i.e. Skills that we can value. But open access to ALL EU migrants has to end IMO. We cannot keep sustaining 100,000's of immigrants every year.

You are implying that these 100,000's of immigrants are EU only. More net migration comes from outside of the EU:

Net Migration Statistics

Migration by Citizenship

5. The International Passenger Survey records the nationality of those interviewed so estimates of migration by citizenship can be produced. Table 1 below shows a breakdown of the latest figures.

More British citizens leave the country than arrive. EU net migration is currently 133,000 compared to 175,000 from outside the EU.

Table 1: Latest Migration Statistics, Year Ending December 2016
All Citizenships British Non-British EU Non-EU
Immigration 588,000 74,000 514,000 250,000 264,000
Emigration 339,000 134,000 206,000 117,000 88,000
Net Migration 248,000 -60,000 308,000 133,000 175,000