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Child grooming gang found guilty
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:16   #226
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post

I am not saying there were no issues within the respective communities but that's different to race.
On a technicality perhaps but what is it that separates most communities these days?
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:18   #227
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
However in this case all the men were Asian. If they chose to keep it within their own community then a) they created the racial element by doing so and b) questions need to be asked as to why others in that community did not take action sooner.
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.

That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:18   #228
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Does that include the fact that all the men were Asian?

Russ - if all the men were asian and they had been exclusively sounding/seeking out and raping white girls only then you would havesome form of an argument.

What we do know is that a lot of the victims were not sounded out by the gang members themselves. The girl known has Honey Monster, see link in previous post, is white. She had a prominent role in bringing girls to the gang members. Now we don't now if they forced her to bring white girls only - what I would guess is that it was probably easier for her to bring white girls to the gang members than to bring asian ones.

We also know that the gang leader got convicted for raping/grooming a asian girl from a very young age - so this shows he did not exclusively target white girls for rape (whether they are part of this case or another).

We donot know the extent of how many victims they raped. I am pretty certain that not all victims have come forward and I am pretty certain that there are asian girls that have been raped too.

Therefore I would say that people who are saying it is purely/significantly racially motivated havent looked at all the facts.

Ok - let us assume all the girls that these girls have raped have come forward and they are all white. Would the fact that a lot were 'recruited' by a white girl indicate there is more than just asian guys sounding out white girls. And if the argument is that she was told to bring back ceratin girls only, they already rejected one for being too young.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:21   #229
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
On a technicality perhaps but what is it that separates most communities these days?
There is a difference between race and culture. Focusing on race misses this important distinction.

So I am saying that the discussion should centre on the culture these men came from. It's important because other races could come from that culture and not all Asians are part of the same culture. That's if this was a culture issue at all. It should just be a standard bunch of sex offenders.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:22   #230
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.

That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.
Point well made Damien.

No one is denying that this happens in the asian community.

What I would like to see is more asian women coming forward when raped. There is a huge cultural issue that would make a woman think coming out and saying she is raped is worse than staying quiet about it. It's the same with domestic violence.

I hope that more victims do come out - it must be terrible to suffer rape, and even more so when you feel that you will be 'tarnished' because you have been raped.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:25   #231
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo View Post
Russ - if all the men were asian and they had been exclusively sounding/seeking out and raping white girls only then you would havesome form of an argument.
Tell me what you think my argument is.

---------- Post added at 17:25 ---------- Previous post was at 17:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien View Post
Yes but in other cases the defendants are entirely white. We don't say there is a racial element to it. I think the reason they are all Asian is because they all knew each other and people tend to draw their circle of friends from the community they reside in. Asians tend to have vastly more Asian friends than a white person does.
Agaian, I'm not talking about 'other' cases. I'm talking about this one. If the men involved chose to keep it to within their community then it was they who chose to create the racial element.

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
That isn't to say that there are not problems within the Asian community about this issue, either a reluctance to confront/acknowledge it, a disrespect towards women, or they don't take sexual crimes seriously. This is all different to a 'race' crime. It's about community and culture not race.
I've not said this was a 'race crime'.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:25   #232
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Damien View Post
It was reported as a racial crime because it seemed to be an entirely Asian gang focusing on white girls. There is now evidence that partly explains that, one of the victims was finding other girls, and a victim came forward that was Asian.

I am not saying there were no issues within the respective communities but that's different to race.
I don't get it ,if the defendants said it was racially motivated why is everyone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la can't here you it wasn't racially motivated "
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:26   #233
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
Tell me what you think my argument is.
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:28   #234
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by martyh View Post
I don't get it ,if the defendants said it was racially motivated why is everyone sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la can't here you it wasn't racially motivated "
I would need to see what exactly the defendants said. Did they mean they only wanted white girls or was it an issue with where these girls came from? As pointed out there was a victim who wasn't white.

I still think this is more about culture and community than race.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:30   #235
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo View Post
Point well made Damien.

No one is denying that this happens in the asian community.
And nobody is saying it is exclusive to the Asian community. However as a side note, do we get news reports of gangs of white men raping women? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it does seem conspicuous by its absence in any news reports.

---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:28 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo View Post
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.
Not once have I said it is racially motivated nor have I given the impression that it's what I think.

What I have said numerous times is that there is a racial element to it.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:31   #236
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

Because we don't want to believe it. incase there's any trouble.

we love hearing it when it's the other way around. because some of us like to stand up and say that's disgusting and I want to assure you that I am truly sickened to be of the same colour as those animals, and I am your bestest friend.

---------- Post added at 17:31 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saaf_laandon_mo View Post
From what I've read of your posts - your argument comes across that this is racially motivated because all the perpertrators are asian.

If that's not the case then you need to clarify what your argument is.
Racially motivated?
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:32   #237
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Originally Posted by Russ View Post
And nobody is saying it is exclusive to the Asian community. However as a side note, do we get news reports of gangs of white men raping women? I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it does seem conspicuous by its absence in any news reports.
Well of course we do. It's just in those cases their race never comes up as an issue. You rarely ever see 'white man' as a key part of a story because 90% of this country is white. You get paedophiles who are old white men, remember that woman and man from about a year ago? The woman was a nursery teacher? They were both white.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:31 ----------

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What I have said numerous times is that there is a racial element to it.
And I am saying there is a cultural element to it. There are Asians who exist outside of this culture therefore the race part has nothing to do with it.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:35   #238
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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Well of course we do. It's just in those cases their race never comes up as an issue. You rarely ever see 'white man' as a key part of a story because 90% of this country is white. You get paedophiles who are old white men, remember that woman and man from about a year ago? The woman was a nursery teacher? They were both white.
There's a difference between a gang of men (the police have said they believe there are more involved) and a pair of sick idiots.

You say 'of course we do' - if you can show me some headlines where a gang of white men have groomed and raped women I'd be very interested to see it.

I don't know if it's a fact but it certainly seems like paedophile gangs are mainly made up of white men - perhaps there's an element of race there.

My point is people should not be afraid of making a racial connection, as seems to be the case in this thread.
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:36   #239
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

I don't understand your use of the term 'cultural' damien?

it's a culture thing as to why they did it?

why are you dismissing race completely. assuming that the use of the word race in this example is black v brown v white?
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Old 22-06-2012, 17:36   #240
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Re: Child grooming gang found guilty

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And I am saying there is a cultural element to it. There are Asians who exist outside of this culture therefore the race part has nothing to do with it.
As someone who I'm sure you'll be aware has spent time in and around that culture, I can say the line is a very thin and blurred one in the majority of situations.
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