Brexit (Old)

[djfunkdup]

132-Days 9-Hrs 1-Min and 40-Seconds

[Hom3r]

If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by jfman

Are you for real? You are sidetracking the conversation on the back of an opinion piece. Abbot has negotiated bad deals in the past that got postponed by his successor, indicating his understanding may not be as much as you first believed.

The only thing you've put forward so far is that the timetable for a trade agreementl with India was ambitious.

You have shown nothing else except you posited a trade agreement had been reached that did not go ahead. That was totally false.

Did the agreement go ahead as negotiated by Mr Abbot or did it not?

[Gavin78]

Originally Posted by jfman

We have a Prime Minister who wants to set the country back to the dark ages? I think that's clearly untrue.

She is carrying out the wishes of those who wanted to leave the EU - she has went and got the best deal she can. It's now up to Parliament to decide whether to accept or explore other options.

We haven't done any of the preparatory work required to crash out on WTO terms. To do so threatens the very existence of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. To align ourselves with EU standards and not impose tariffs means we are restricted in the trade agreements we can make with the rest of the world.

In a democracy nobody should be silenced, one of the fundamental freedoms is to be able to disagree.

Your entire post is over sentimental drivel. I can accept that, the most bitter of Brexit supporters is seeing their dream crumble before their very eyes.

However, when you strip the emotion out of the situation the cold facts are the EU holds all the cards and we hold none.

Listen to yourself. The vote was made to leave not leave the door half open.

You talk of democracy if this were true the wishes of those asking to leave the EU would be carried out and preperations for leaving would have been made WTO as an example.

The PM has tried to carry out the wishes for the whole country by getting a deal for both sides and making a complete crock of it.

If the vote had gone the otherway and was this close do you think anything would have changed? it wouldn't have and those 17m people would have just been silenced and life carry on.

All you have done is point out that no preperation for leaving is that anything beyond a vote to leave is all "leave" was going to get the rest from that point on is to appease the remain side with a remain sided PM.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

I'm loving how the pain in the Brexiteers is resulting in the conversation becoming sidetracked to avoid the reality that there's no Parliamentary majority for May's deal and none for No Deal.

Why pain? I quite like the choice between TM's deal and a no deal. That'll separate the men from the boys in the House of Commons! Whoops, sorry, ladies.

---------- Post added at 15:53 ---------- Previous post was at 15:50 ----------

Originally Posted by Hom3r

If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.

I hope not, Hom3r, because as a spoilt paper, your vote will not be counted. If everyone did that, the remainers would win by default.

Anyway, hopefully it will not come to that.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Gavin78

Listen to yourself. The vote was made to leave not leave the door half open.

You talk of democracy if this were true the wishes of those asking to leave the EU would be carried out and preperations for leaving would have been made WTO as an example.

The PM has tried to carry out the wishes for the whole country by getting a deal for both sides and making a complete crock of it.

If the vote had gone the otherway and was this close do you think anything would have changed? it wouldn't have and those 17m people would have just been silenced and life carry on.

All you have done is point out that no preperation for leaving is that anything beyond a vote to leave is all "leave" was going to get the rest from that point on is to appease the remain side with a remain sided PM.

The vote was made to leave but it's impossible to implement in the timescales we have worked within.

It doesn't matter what would have happened if remain had won the first referendum - that's a hypothetical scenario.

In this real scenario we have no deal, a bad deal or remain. As the clock ticks down if the May deal fails this Parliament will not vote to leave the EU on no deal terms without either a) a second referendum and/or b) a General Election.

Anyone pretending there will not be a push for this is ignoring reality. With Rudd back on board this is a May cabinet. May has no skin left in the electoral game - she is toast anyway. She is the exact person the country needs to stop Brexit and that's why there's a clamour from the ERG to get her removed as soon as possible.

The ERG supports no deal anyway - it could oppose the May deal from the back benches if it genuinely believed there were only two options on the table. However, there are three.

I'm not actually a passionate remainer, I did vote to remain but could have easily voted the other way. I stand to benefit financially from the economic turmoil of leaving the EU with as much chaos as possible, the sector I work in will not feel the same effects of a recession and it'd open up investment opportunities. I'm just pointing out what's happening at Westminster level here.

---------- Post added at 16:17 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------

Originally Posted by Hom3r

If by a miracle the losers, sorry Mod Edit get they way after crying so mush, and we remian the the corrupt EU.

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why.

I will go to vote but write on my ballot paper "WHY BOTHER, AS BREXIT MEANT BREXIT"

With a few choice words I cannot print here.

Ironically that's entirely neutral how you choose to waste your energy is irrelevant to the Government. If you choose to abstain in future elections then that's probably an adequate outcome for your sitting MP.

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Why pain? I quite like the choice between TM's deal and a no deal. That'll separate the men from the boys in the House of Commons! Whoops, sorry, ladies.

People aren't replying so passionately because I'm wrong.

If anyone genuinely believed I was wrong they'd just ignore me and leave me over here howling at the moon.

However the clock ticks on and there's three options on the table, not two.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I feel that the Anglo/Irish GFA is just that and is bilateral. The EU snout is in there to support the Irish tail that is wagging the dog. The Irish interest is purely economic and their ploy is thus not in good faith.

The GFA does not mandate an open border. The issue is really a commercial matter not one of terrorism. By being tough, it could be left to the two countries to sort out. Trouble is that EU Law on which they are totally pedantic comes into play.

There is a strong case for no deal and let the EU erect a border to Ireland’s ennui. If they didn’t, then neither need we.

Why do you want to be bound to a bunch of nasties like the EU?

As we discussed before, the GFA is not a peace agreement on the whole but a framework of mutual cooperation that allows recognition of some in Northern Ireland to be Irish as well as British. If the North/South cooperation enables economic success to the mutual benefit of these on both sides of the border, that is surely a successful outcome?

Again, as we have discussed before, the open border facilitates North/South cooperation. To have a setup which stops an open border ends that facilitation and hinders the cooperation that has been in place for nearly 20 years.

The democratically elected government of Ireland delegates responsibility for some aspects of its business to the EU as we have and will do until we leave. What’s in it for Ireland to go it alone?

If there is no deal as you say there is a strong case for, and we keep an open border between the Uk and the Republic of Ireland, are you happy for an open trading borders with every member of the WTO under their rules?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

What is there to solve? Did you read the Abbot article?

I literally wrote the problem to solve in the quoted post.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

The GFA does not mandate an open border. The issue is really a commercial matter not one of terrorism. By being tough, it could be left to the two countries to sort out. Trouble is that EU Law on which they are totally pedantic comes into play.

The agreement largely works because it fudges the question of identity. In Northern Ireland people can choose either or both an Irish and a British passport, they can be Irish or British, and another aspect of that is allowing them to move back and forth without feeling that divide. It's a fudge but one that works. It was never mandated because by happy coincidence the border was already 'open' as a result of the EU. All that was actually there were security checkpoints and not custom or passport checks. GFA got rid of many U.K imposed border infrastructure.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jfman

No deal is hardly a quandary for the EU.

It's one of the options they have forced us into alongside 'bad deal'.

I'm sure the EU project as a whole wouldn't mind 'no deal' as an example to other Member States what life will be like for them if they leave. The EU will have been preparing for that contingency since June 2016.

While £39bn is a lot, I'm sure the largest trading bloc in the world can find it somewhere else.

---------- Post added at 14:46 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------



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[COLOR="BLUE”] I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.

These bad guys want to shackle us. You have conceded that the EU is out to punish us. Why would you want to have anything to do with them?


[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by Hom3r

I will never vote again as I can just start crying ang throw my toys out of the pram and demand another vote until I get my why..

You're never going to vote again because you can ask for another vote?

---------- Post added at 17:00 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.

I think they've factored in the hit they'll take, they didn't want Brexit remember? However the hit isn't so dramatic that it forced the governments to give us whatever we wanted as the Leavers predicted. What happened to the Germany Car Manufactures forcing a deal? Or the 'Easiest Trade Deal' in history?

I have had to edit a certain word several times which is NOT to be used as the OP suggested it's not a word to be used to describe remainers. Please don't annoy me by repeating it again.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

[COLOR="BLUE”] I had you smarter than that. You can see from the draft agreement and the political protocol that the EU is shit scared of the UK aging additional competitiveness after Brexit. Never mind the BMW, Mercedes, Prosecco and Frog Cheese that will take a hit.

These bad guys want to shackle us. You have conceded that the EU is out to punish us. Why would you want to have anything to do with them?


[/COLOR]

I wouldn’t describe it as shit scared. I’d say it knows that it has the upper hand in negotiations and has the capability to include caveats that serve its own interests- as any rational capitalist entity would.

At no point have I endorsed any of your emotive language. Both the EU and the UK are trying to get the best deal they can. The reality is the EU hold the upper hand. It holds a pair of aces meanwhile we have the two of spades and an expired railcard. We brought that on ourselves by not effectively planning.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

As we discussed before, the GFA is not a peace agreement on the whole but a framework of mutual cooperation that allows recognition of some in Northern Ireland to be Irish as well as British.

<SNIP>

If there is no deal as you say there is a strong case for, and we keep an open border between the Uk and the Republic of Ireland, are you happy for an open trading borders with every member of the WTO under their rules?

The GFA has been ascribed varying attributes in this thread. The closest to reflecting reality is yours, I would say.

But then there is Brexit. The EU pretends to want to protect the GFA because, ultimately, of the risk of terrorism. It seems to me that the UK guvmin has bought that; either they know something about terrorism that the EU doesn’t, or it’s just gullible. Ireland is only interested in the economical aspect. NThe EU is interested in carving Ulster away from the UK.

In such circumstances, we should not fall for the trick that keeps us uncompetitive, shackled to the EU and with the Irish smugly waving to fingers and a shelali at us.

I am happy for an open border with Ireland as you describe because, agai, it would scare the shits out of the legalistic EU about good going into Ireland. A useful starting point that could change later.



---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

I wouldn’t describe it as shit scared. I’d say it knows that it has the upper hand in negotiations and has the capability to include caveats that serve its own interests- as any rational capitalist entity would.

At no point have I endorsed any of your emotive language. Both the EU and the UK are trying to get the best deal they can. The reality is the EU hold the upper hand. It holds a pair of aces meanwhile we have the two of spades and an expired railcard. We brought that on ourselves by not effectively planning.

Of course they hold the upper hand as long as we are the appeasers. The moment we walk out of talks because of their unreasonableness, we are free to do as we want, including reducing VAT and other competitive measures of which the EU are shit scared.

[jfman]

If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by jfman

If the EU were that scared would they not have offered us a good deal?

Exactly. We threw away most of the cards in our hands when we invoked Article 50 without sorting out the groundwork so we could properly threaten a no-deal.