24-03-2019, 14:06
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#511
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,367
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
With all due respect, that’s bollocks.
It was clear to everyone that the Brexit on offer at the referendum was a so called Hard Brexit. If you didn’t understand that...well.
It was only after the result that Nick Clegg coined the terms Hard and Soft Brexit. He knew what was voted on was a Hard Brexit and being the Europhile he is he immediately started the obfuscation process.
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It wasn’t clear at all. It’s absolute nonsense, and historical revisionism, to suggest otherwise. Our relationship with Europe and the single market was unclear. Ardent Brexiteers have in the past used Norway as a potential future model.
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24-03-2019, 14:07
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#512
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laeva recumbens anguis
Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2006
Age: 67
Services: Premiere Collection
Posts: 42,099
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
As i recall it, UKIP, and before it the BNP did very well in the Labour heartlands.
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Not sure if you can count never having an MP elected in a by-election or General Election in the Labour heartlands as "did very well"...
In fact, they’ve only had 2 MPs elected in by-elections (when Carswell and Reckless resigned), and only 1 in a General Election (Carswell, who has since re-joined the Conservatives).
No UKIP candidate, who wasn’t already the sitting MP previously for another party, has ever won a seat in the House of Commons (no matter how many times (7) NF tried).
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24-03-2019, 14:26
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#513
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Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,118
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
Not sure if you can count never having an MP elected in a by-election or General Election in the Labour heartlands as "did very well"...
In fact, they’ve only had 2 MPs elected in by-elections (when Carswell and Reckless resigned), and only 1 in a General Election (Carswell, who has since re-joined the Conservatives).
No UKIP candidate, who wasn’t already the sitting MP previously for another party, has ever won a seat in the House of Commons (no matter how many times (7) NF tried).
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That said - the surge in support for UKIP prior to 2015 cannot be denied. In 2015 - The Tories got 11.3m votes and 329 seats, while Ukip got one seat for 3.9m votes. The voting system in the UK is well and truly knackered, but then so will Democracy itself, if Brexit does not occur.
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24-03-2019, 14:38
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#514
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,041
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh
Not sure if you can count never having an MP elected in a by-election or General Election in the Labour heartlands as "did very well"...
In fact, they’ve only had 2 MPs elected in by-elections (when Carswell and Reckless resigned), and only 1 in a General Election (Carswell, who has since re-joined the Conservatives).
No UKIP candidate, who wasn’t already the sitting MP previously for another party, has ever won a seat in the House of Commons (no matter how many times (7) NF tried).
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UKIP did enough to force a referendum, The BNP & UKIP which you would describe as far right outdid LibDems in many constituencies and in local elections did even better.
To discount this as an MP’s numbers game would be very foolish. Parliament and the establishment ignored this threat and feeling and what did we get? Brexit.
To ignore this shows you are as out if touch in your ivory tower as most of Westminster.
It’s Hilarious.
Westminster and the Establishment facilitated this fiasco by ignoring large swathes of the electorate that had valid concerns, concerns that were preyed upon by UKIP and the far right.
And now after the result how do they intend to adress those concerns? By ignoring the electorate. Stupid is as stupid does.
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The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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24-03-2019, 14:49
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#515
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Jarrow Tyne & Wear
Services: V.I.P 120 tivo and v+
Posts: 5,793
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
That said - the surge in support for UKIP prior to 2015 cannot be denied. In 2015 - The Tories got 11.3m votes and 329 seats, while Ukip got one seat for 3.9m votes. The voting system in the UK is well and truly knackered, but then so will Democracy itself, if Brexit does not occur.
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If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy. David Davis
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24-03-2019, 15:01
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#516
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,041
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42
If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy. David Davis
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It hasn’t changed it’s mind.
A parliament that ignores the will of the people should lose it’s mandate as the Executive.
The Queen should dissolve Parliament if they don’t deliver Brexit.
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The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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24-03-2019, 15:04
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#517
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,367
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
It hasn’t changed it’s mind.
A parliament that ignores the will of the people should lose it’s mandate as the Executive.
The Queen should dissolve Parliament if they don’t deliver Brexit.
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That’s quite desperate. A general election is the solution to test public opinion.
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24-03-2019, 15:10
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#518
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Jarrow Tyne & Wear
Services: V.I.P 120 tivo and v+
Posts: 5,793
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre
It hasn’t changed it’s mind.
A parliament that ignores the will of the people should lose it’s mandate as the Executive.
The Queen should dissolve Parliament if they don’t deliver Brexit.
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you cant say that lots have and you do know we like in a parliamentry sovereign democracy right
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24-03-2019, 15:17
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#519
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Still alive and fighting
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: In the land of beyond and beyond.
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Posts: 56,308
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
That’s quite desperate. A general election is the solution to test public opinion.
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That went down last well last time as that is why Theresa May called a election last time so that she could get a stronger mandate from the public to endorse her governments Brexit policy but alas that did not turn out as the pollsters and the media had imagined did it.
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24-03-2019, 15:19
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#520
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The Dark Satanic Mills
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: floating in the ether
Posts: 12,041
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
That’s quite desperate. A general election is the solution to test public opinion.
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It was tongue in cheek.
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The wheel's still turning but the hamsters dead.
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24-03-2019, 15:31
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#521
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Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,118
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42
If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy. David Davis
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It would help if the result of the first vote was enacted first for that to actually mean anything.
Regardless - No evidence exists to say people in their many millions have changed their mind. Every leave voter I know, has not changed their mind and I know quite a few, this in contrast to Remain voters who I do know, who would now vote leave.
---------- Post added at 15:31 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42
you cant say that lots have and you do know we like in a parliamentry sovereign democracy right
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I am sorry but you cannot tell someone else "they can't say that" and then you say "lots have", you have no way of knowing. It's a complete fallacy to say, "lots have", when you cannot possibly know.
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24-03-2019, 15:35
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#522
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,367
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Re: Brexit (New).
There’s no basis to implement a referendum result nobody wants. Be that May’s deal, or no deal.
If anyone in the leave campaign genuinely thought public opinion hadn’t changed they’d be at the front of the queue saying it’s time for a second referendum. A referendum to end the meddling, based on the evidence available.
It’s telling that there’s no appetite for such a referendum.
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24-03-2019, 15:45
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#523
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Cable Forum Team
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,118
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman
There’s no basis to implement a referendum result nobody wants. Be that May’s deal, or no deal.
If anyone in the leave campaign genuinely thought public opinion hadn’t changed they’d be at the front of the queue saying it’s time for a second referendum. A referendum to end the meddling, based on the evidence available.
It’s telling that there’s no appetite for such a referendum.
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It tells no such thing - we don't keep having the same votes because one side won't accept they lost - leave won the democratic process in 2016. So we leave.
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24-03-2019, 15:46
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#524
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cf.mega poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Jarrow Tyne & Wear
Services: V.I.P 120 tivo and v+
Posts: 5,793
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
It would help if the result of the first vote was enacted first for that to actually mean anything.
Regardless - No evidence exists to say people in their many millions have changed their mind. Every leave voter I know, has not changed their mind and I know quite a few, this in contrast to Remain voters who I do know, who would now vote leave.
---------- Post added at 15:31 ---------- Previous post was at 15:27 ----------
I am sorry but you cannot tell someone else "they can't say that" and then you say "lots have", you have no way of knowing. It's a complete fallacy to say, "lots have", when you cannot possibly know.
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i accept i didn't explain myself properly there is people that changed mind in both directions no one can know for certain what difference in the result would be now i was trying to say to Pierre no one can say that for certain that's all i wasn't clear enough
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24-03-2019, 15:53
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#525
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Architect of Ideas
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,367
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Re: Brexit (New).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick
It tells no such thing - we don't keep having the same votes because one side won't accept they lost - leave won the democratic process in 2016. So we leave.
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Except Parliament will not vote for it.
The only way we leave the European Union and it's if Leave wins a second referendum. It's the political reality and there is no way around it.
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