Britain outside the EU

Originally Posted by jfman

Perhaps so, however it at least then requires an open, honest discussion grounded in reality about expectations rather than the contradictory hopes and dreams of various people who agree on a single narrow point.

Especially if the majority are, on some level, likely to be disappointed with some or all of the outcome.

I think that would be extremely hard to achieve in our political system. Referendums are still a novelty in our constitution. Even their implementation crashes headlong into the whole concept of parliamentary sovereignty. An open, honest discussion grounded in reality about expectations might work in the Swiss model where there are more referendums than you can shake a stick at, on narrow issues, all the time. But we have only attempted to use them on major constitutional questions that are highly contentious by nature.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

I think that would be extremely hard to achieve in our political system. Referendums are still a novelty in our constitution. Even their implementation crashes headlong into the whole concept of parliamentary sovereignty. An open, honest discussion grounded in reality about expectations might work in the Swiss model where there are more referendums than you can shake a stick at, on narrow issues, all the time. But we have only attempted to use them on major constitutional questions that are highly contentious by nature.

That's not an excuse to stumble from chaotic event to chaotic event that could be absolutely foreseen, and blaming either people who voted to remain or the private sector for being unable to predict the outcome of wide ranging discussions years in advance.

[1andrew1]

Looks like the Brexiters are turning on Johnson. Perhaps blaming your friends was not the best of moves for Johnson?

Bosses lash Boris Johnson: ‘man with no plan’

Furious business bosses have lined up to accuse Boris Johnson of leading Britain into a “cost of living catastrophe” without a credible plan to tackle the crises piling up for the economy.

Even former Tory loyalists such as Brexiteer Wetherspoon pubs boss Tim Martin joined the attack saying the Prime Minister headed a Government “lurching from one unpredictable initiative to another” with the least “commercial savvy” or “guiding philosophy” of any administration for 40 years.

The extraordinary row between a Tory leadership and captains of industry, normally seen as natural allies, was first triggered by an article in the Evening Standard on Monday, written by Leave-supporting Next chief executive Lord Wolfson.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...h-b959283.html

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jfman

That's not an excuse to stumble from chaotic event to chaotic event that could be absolutely foreseen, and blaming either people who voted to remain or the private sector for being unable to predict the outcome of wide ranging discussions years in advance.

You are in purist mode, jfman. We do not live in a perfect world where everything is black and white.

Most of us are able to judge the arguments people make for themselves. We either accept them or reject them. Then we decide.

That’s just how it works.

---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

Now all we have, from some at least, is persistent defection. OB is keen to rehash the debates of 2016-19 all over again. However that doesn’t move us forward.

I agree that this doesn’t move us forward, but when I raise the point in answer the the moans of the reluctant remainers that this was a democratic decision, others, including your good self, keep making excuses about the way in which the debate was conducted. I am simply saying we need to accept that decision and the fact that Brexit has happened.

Instead of dwelling on the angst that remainers still feel about losing the argument, and the persistent cries of ‘We told you so’ from them when anything goes wrong, it would be rather more constructive if we turned our attention to how we addressed these transitional issues.

You don’t solve problems by constantly moaning about them and looking backwards. That won’t get us anywhere.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You are in purist mode, jfman. We do not live in a perfect world where everything is black and white.

Most of us are able to judge the arguments people make for themselves. We either accept them or reject them. Then we decide.

That’s just how it works.

I’m not even sure the point you are making, OB. Other than to seek to absolve the government of any responsibility for governing.

I agree that this doesn’t move us forward, but when I raise the point in answer the the moans of the reluctant remainers that this was a democratic decision, others, including your good self, keep making excuses about the way in which the debate was conducted. I am simply saying we need to accept that decision and the fact that Brexit has happened.

I have - I’m indeed at pains to stress I don’t see the value in rehashing the same debates over and over.

Instead of dwelling on the angst that remainers still feel about losing the argument, and the persistent cries of ‘We told you so’ from them when anything goes wrong, it would be rather more constructive if we turned our attention to how we addressed these transitional issues.

You don’t solve problems by constantly moaning about them and looking backwards. That won’t get us anywhere.

Perhaps there would be no cries of “we told you so” if indeed we had mitigated against foreseeable problems? If legitimate concerns of the transition - coming to fruition - weren’t dismissed as “remoaners” by those in favour that had no solutions.

I agree it won’t get anyone, anywhere. However it suits one side of the argument - the leave side - to bog everyone down in nationalistic hubris rather than own the problems arising from their haphazard implementation of one of the biggest policy shifts in any of our lifetimes.

[Carth]

Carth walks into the playground.

Looks over at the (not so) merry-go-round and decides it's a waste of time.

Glances towards the big slide, where business leaders are queuing up for their turn on the slope towards lower profit margins.

Heads towards the swings, but turns away when he notices that those sitting on the swings are lazily waiting for someone else to push them.

Carth slowly wanders back home, passing all the fully fueled cars that haven't moved for a week, and smiles as he passes the chap from the council who's carefully spraying yellow circles around the same pot holes they fixed last year.

Aint life grand

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You don’t solve problems by constantly moaning about them and looking backwards. That won’t get us anywhere.

What the Brexit-voting bosses of Next, Wetherspoons and Iceland are seeking is a plan.

Since 2016, we have been discussing this point off and on as I saught to look forward and move beyond stale arguments. All I've ever heard has been wait and see.

I was less patient than these Brexiters but now they've caught up with reality and are asking that very question. That's a big step change.

[Carth]

Next: Production problems in Asia, and shipping problems from there to here.
Wetherspoons; Got rid of his staff, who are now returning that level of loyalty.
Iceland: No idea, but probably a mixture of the two above.

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Carth

Next: Production problems in Asia, and shipping problems from there to here.
Wetherspoons; Got rid of his staff, who are now returning that level of loyalty.
Iceland: No idea, but probably a mixture of the two above.

Wrong, but I'm sure Johnson would give you a pat on the back for trying to save his.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Wrong, but I'm sure Johnson would give you a pat on the back for trying to save his.

I'm sure he would, it's as good as Boris insinuating that the breakaway european super league was something to do politics and how the Tories prevented it...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

I'm sure he would, it's as good as Boris insinuating that the breakaway european super league was something to do politics and how the Tories prevented it...

Was he wearing an England shirt over his suit at the time?

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Carth

Next: Production problems in Asia, and shipping problems from there to here.
Wetherspoons; Got rid of his staff, who are now returning that level of loyalty.
Iceland: No idea, but probably a mixture of the two above.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Wrong, but I'm sure Johnson would give you a pat on the back for trying to save his.

Care to explain where what I wrote was 'wrong', and give your version?

Originally Posted by Carth

Next: Production problems in Asia, and shipping problems from there to here.
Wetherspoons; Got rid of his staff, who are now returning that level of loyalty.
Iceland: No idea, but probably a mixture of the two above.

Originally Posted by Carth

Care to explain where what I wrote was 'wrong', and give your version?

Next don’t think the shipping problems are negatively affecting their business

https://www.business-live.co.uk/reta...simon-21713000

Global supply chain issues mean Next’s stock levels are 12 per cent down on two years ago – but, the business says, with enough products online and in the shops to satisfy customer demand.

Wetherspoons - agreed

Iceland - no supporting evidence

At best, you’re half-right…

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Next don’t think the shipping problems are negatively affecting their business

https://www.business-live.co.uk/reta...simon-21713000



Wetherspoons - agreed

Iceland - no supporting evidence

At best, you’re half-right…

.... better than many.

[Carth]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Next don’t think the shipping problems are negatively affecting their business

Adding 2% to their shipping costs doesn't help, but I guess some people don't think that's a negative

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58731504